Osborne's Budget - looks like pensioners will lose out the most

A single, unemployed person below retirement age, with savings of less than £6,000, gets £67.50 benefits per week. A single person of retirement age, with savings of less than £10,000, gets a minimum of £137.00 per week, plus Winter Fuel Allowance, free Bus Pass, and, being on Pension Credit, additional fuel allowances and is put through a gateway to further benefits.

How are the lowest income pensioners worse off than the lowest income people of working age?

No one is saying it's easy but compared to many groups we do okay by the Government.

It seems to me that a lot of us save for a rainy day but when it starts raining we still don't want to spend it! I think of my grand children, one two and a half and one nine months old, and all the debt we, as a society, are going to saddle them with.

But, it's a lovely day where I am, so I'm going out to smell the flowers!!

Of course they went for pensioners! Easy target and a lot of them so they can rake in the money easily without too much of a fight. However there is always the ballot box, though quite frankly I didn't think much of the other lot either. Watching the Opposition posturing as they are trained to do after the Budget speech it was a case of pot and kettle in my view. I'm very concerned about my children and their families who are struggling and will continue to do so. There is no suitable transport for getting to work so the car has to be used. Thank goodness for the likes of pound shops for bits and pieces and George for clothes for growing children. As for the NHS - I've had another run in with the 'new' system which is meant to cure all ills. My parents must be turning in their graves. I suppose after this flurry we'll all accept it though - stiff upper lip and all that!

Gillian77 your soundbite - ' a lot of us save for a rainy day but when it starts raining we still don't want to spend it' made me burst out laughing. That is absolutely me to a tee

Gillian no-one is saying that certain impoverished people are better off or worse off - you are pitting people on benefits against pensioners and not allowing for the the fact that those well above the poverty line i.e. the wealthy are being given even more - they aren't taking it from each other, though - it's us that are losing out!

Any tax avoider who pays NOTHING because they have skilled accountants to squirrel away the money they should pay taxes on, is not going to come out and say 'ah! I see I have no need to dodge paying 50p now, so I will pay the 45p instead and help the government reduce the deficit.' They will carry on paying nothing!

Why is there disagreement between people at the bottom of this awful oppressive situation - it's the wealthy tax dodgers and corrupt politicians and bankers you shoud be barracking, not other pensioners.

I haven't been able to keep my rainy day savings - it rained heavily!

Within the last few year's pensioners have been hit very hard financially.Firstly my pension was taken away,just a few years before retirement. I now have to work an extra two and a half years. The goverment have taken away between £10,000 and !5,000 from me, what a saving. My view is that although through making this move many more young people will be unemployed, its cheaper to pay unemployment money to the youngsters than to pay us a pension. Last year also seen a reduction of the winter fuel allowance for pensioners. Now sadly we have this third reduction to Pensioners, the granny tax. It maddened me yesterday,during discussions, that no one put people right, when it was said everyone had to contribute to the country's economic savings. What have the fat cat Bankers who almost ruined the country contributed, apart from more bonuses.Politicians who fiddled expenses. Is this what we wont to show our Grand children as a behavior pattern?

One pensioner I know was very happy about the removal of the 50p tax rate.
That is the dilemma isn't it. Why should he have a winter fuel allowance and a free bus pass? Or any special tax breaks just because he is over 65? There is a strong case to be made for taxing more wealthy pensioners on a level playing field with everyone else.

Carol, I've had a few heavy showers myself. My lovely sons have told me not to worry about leaving them anything - they are doing pretty well for themselves now.

Yes, wealthy pensioners should not be accepting things like free bus passes and the winter fuel allowance. Means-testing for tax codes and benefits would help, but when you've got a patronising chancellor telling us, 'there, there, you don't need to fill an assessment form in now' you just know that he's washed his hands of pensioners and doesn't want us clogging up the system. It's easier to put everyone though the same sheepdip, than having to address the damage done.

I thought I would mellow as I got older, but I and many of my contemporaries are becoming much more politically aware and prepared to challenge the way we are treated. There are so many pensioners and people on benefits who believe the tory hype and think they should accept being trodden on.

We are the ones with the time to fight back after retirement. Young families who are struggling need us to do our bit, because if we accept this treatment, they have an even worse future to look forward to. If we aren't going to object for ourselves, at least let's fight to keep pension rights for the next generations.

Glad to see I made you smile, Petallus. Although, I'm afraid I don't practice what I preach, I'm still trying to "squirrel" it away, trouble is it keeps escaping!!

Carol - we obviously have different views about what "impoverished" means. I don't believe any pensioner in this country is "impoverished" based on what the Government minimum guaranteed pension credit pays. I'm not "barracking" anybody; I'm simply stating my opinion, just as you are. Or am I not allowed to disagree with you?

After watching a discussion on TV last night regarding the "granny tax" I was amazed to hear one of the speakers say that everybody had to contribute to help overcome the present global recession that is hitting Great Britain. Whilst realizing that we all have to contribute, I am rather annoyed that I have had to do so three times over the last three years.
Firstly my pension age was changed from 60 to 62, (which is a loss of approx £12,000, for which I have already paid in for!). Because people are not retiring at the usual age, there has been less jobs available for the young to step into.
This of course saves the Government money because it is far cheaper to pay youth unemployment benefit the it is to pay a pension!
Secondly, the winter fuel allowance has been reduced whilst fuel bills have rocketed.
Thirdly, well this new budget say's it all!
I seem to remember Mr Cameron saying that he was committed to protecting the old and vulnerable in society. Well, we don't seem to have seen much of that!
The only people who seem to be doing nicely are the fat cats who almost brought the country to it's knees with their huge bonuses and politicians who fiddled their expenses etc, etc.
Is it a good role model to our grandchildren to show them that they will be rewarded for doing wrong.

Gillian disagree away, I enjoy healthy debate as do so many other Gransnetters, and we can agree to disagree.

I am involved with several impoverished pensioners who suffer genuine hardship and rely on charity handouts and neighbours looking out for them with occasional hot meals. I know one elderly woman who lives in a 4 bedroomed house that has fallen into disrepair and she can't afford to maintain it, but can't sell it, heat it, or repair her boiler. She has ended up in debt. She has no family. She lives in one room and the kitchen and has brought her bed down there. There isn't a meals on wheels service in her district. She went into hospital with bronchitis at Christmas and was assessed as suitable for more help, but it hasn't been forthcoming, despite reminders from several neigbours. We have written to her MP. All she thinks she can hope for is that she becomes ill enough to go into a nursing home.

Another elderly man thinks he is not impoverished but is living from hand to mouth, only has his pension and a small top-up - he was in a mental hospital for most of his adult life and then discharged to 'Care in the Community' during which time he had all assistance removed when he got his flat, which is paid by housing benefit. He has cup-a-soups for his lunch and a meal provided by his sister, who is in her 80s, and eats toast the rest of the time. He isn't eligible for extra help, so is dressed by charities and clothes donated by neighbours, wears trainers given by a neighbour's son. He also has debts which he is paying back to the credit union in small amounts. He is regarded as capable of maintaining himself in his own home, so he rarely has anyone show up to check on his needs, although there is a housing association contact (she is never available).

Good points made by Geraldine who has represented Gransnet in the media a few times in the last couple of days. We are a politically aware, savvy group who will get our point made, one way or another.

Anogram yes, "certain groups lose out at every budget"
But the thing is which groups? The rich or the poor?

Maybe us grannies should start finding ways to "avoid" tax and then it won't be worth taxing us and the smirking one will reduce our taxes.........
or something like that!
Or we could just steal our groceries and then it won't be worth charging us.........or whatever.....
Of course, if we had enough money, we could buy all our food in advance and get it cheaper than what we would have paid next year.

It may seem these politicians need a lesson in logic but I fear it is just that they bank on the rest of us not understanding logic.

Carol I was composing a post touching on some of the points you made but lost it!
The examples you cite are more extreme than the ones I thought about. In a less dramatic example I thought about the lady who will be affected by the loss of £70 - £80 a year. This means she'll struggle to give Christmas gifts to her family. Admittedly not life or death but an erosion of self-esteem. Unable to afford taxis so with an unreliable bus service she is trapped at home leading to isolation and loss of confidence. Unwilling to bump up fuel bills so spending a lot of time in bed during the winter. Not the extreme poverty of some developing countries but in a wealthy country - recession notwithstanding - a disgrace that such people are subsidising the richest.

carboncareful

Good post!

Apparently George Osborne does not pay the 50p tax, in spite of being a multi-millionaire and never having had a proper job in his life. His salary is just below the £150000 threshold. However, he acquires money through renting out his mansion as well as money from his trust fund. Why does the tax system allow this? The government takes tax from pensions at source, which makes pensioners an easy target for collection, while HMRC organises sweetheart deals with companies like Vodaphone. A change in the tax system, so that it benefits the majority in this country, whatever their circumstances, is well overdue.

I think it is the way that the people with less power, influence and wealth are dismissed by the powers that be that really riles me. In this country, you don't have a voice as an individual, unless you are wealthy, powerful and/or famous.

Whilst the chancellor is playing chess with our lives, he and his cronies are living the high life in multi-million pound homes, and the percentage of tax that they actually pay (and the percentage of their income paid in tax) is many times less that those of us who pay our standard 20% after the basic allowance. That is simply not fair in a democratic society. And to find 3 billion pounds over 3 years from these proposed tax changes for pensioners is nothing short of robbery.

If I can work to pay for my retirement, why can't I have the amount I was entitled to, and I will gladly choose to disperse the small amount I can spare to good causes. That small amount is now going to the wealthy tax avoiders - surely that is not fair?

IT rains so much in our home that I am never with out my wellies

I agree with every word Carol and thank you for saying it so eloquently on here and to GNHQ for saying it so eloquently to a wider audience. Although I don't live in the UK at the moment, I pay tax on my occupational pension there and I still feel entirely involved in what happens in the country where my family live and work. I am shocked by the way this government is seeking to give extra money to the richest in the land, whilst targeting the rest of us to pay more. I am glad that the headlines are at last speaking out against this government; it is about time.
Just also like to point out that the tax allowance for pensioners was introduced by Winston Churchill.

Hi Carol, obviously I can't dispute the personal experiences you quote. Are they claiming everything they can? My other half's very elderly father and much younger step-mother are both entitled to Pension Credit. My father-in-law is also entitled to Attendance Allowance, enhanced rate for disability and my mother-in-law gets Disability Living Allowance, Care and Mobility Component. All this in total comes to, in cash terms, £320 per week. Their Council Tax is paid, and their rent on their warden controlled accommodation paid for by the Council. They also get a brand new car every three years, with all servicing, insurance and taxes taken care of, all they have to do is put petrol in it. Seriously, I'm not making this up and there is scope for more benefit payments if their conditions get worse.

I'm sure we've got experts on here who know far more about the benefit system than I do, who could verify or disprove what I'm saying about the range of benefits people can claim!!

If my in-laws can get this range of benefits, I don't know why the people you're talking about can't get some of them too, especially Attendance Allowance.

em - I'm confused by your post. The lady's pension is going up by 5.2%, the reduction in the tax allowance doesn't kick in until someone has an income of more that £10,000.

I, too, am a pensioner. For the past six and a half years we have cared for two of our grandsons, now aged ten and a half and six and a half. Both parents have been deemed unsuitable to care for them by the Courts. We get child support from one parent, who has gone on to have two more children from two further relationships. This by no means covers the cost of supporting two rapidly growing boys. The other parent has alcohol and mental health problems and now lives on benefits.

Not only has the Government taken our tax allowances from us. We have also lost Child Tax Credits.

Being of a generation who saved when we could, our savings are now rapidly being depleted. Paltry interest rates on saving make things worse.

Mr Osborne must feel very pleased with himself. He's helped himself and his cronies to money from the pockets of pensioners. Good one!!!

True enough, gillian. These benefits are available but they are awarded only on the basis of need. The new car is paid for by the mobility element of DLA. They are not compelled to use it to buy a car. Many people are glad to use it for taxi fares or possibly to run a mobility scooter. Some may envy these benefits, but do we envy the disabilities that make them necessary?

Yes Gillian they are claiming all they can in monetary and benefit terms - people who sink into debt don't get helped out by benefits agencies once they have taken out crisis loans that are being paid back out of reduced benefits, and anyone with a large house is advised to shut off rooms and live in as few as possible. I have worked with welfare benefits for all of my career and then volunteered with a credit union, and the sorry stories of people sinking deeper into debt and lack of support is growing. A woman with a large house and little money doesn't necessarily benefit from being told she can have free insulation when she hasn't got heating to keep the warmth in her house, and relies on oil heaters which are more expensive, but all she can afford as they were given to her. We have looked for a gas fitter/plumber to help but when they see the sorry state of her boiler, they say she needs a new one - she hasn't got the money.

Sorry, Gillian, I meant to add that the criteria for Attendance Allowance are very tough and likely to get tougher:

You may get Attendance Allowance (AA) if the following apply:
you have a physical disability (including sensory disability, such as blindness), a mental disability (including learning difficulties), or both
your disability is severe enough for you to need help caring for yourself or someone to supervise you, for your own or someone else’s safety
you are aged 65 or over when you claim

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Disabledpeople/DG_10018710

I don't think the people described by Carol and em would be considered eligible on these criteria.

The phrase is 'help with 'bodily functions' these mean things like toile ting, feeding, dressing, mobilising indoors etc
They do not include things like shopping transport housework ironing gardening
Heating and for the over 65s cooking!
Supervision has to be continuous thought the day and prolonged or repeated at night.
Yes it's difficult to get. This is what I spend my time doing. Sitting on the appeals for AA/DLA and also ESA.