Truancy penalties - should they be tougher?

In the 50s and 60s there were plenty of people who left school unable to read, write or do basic maths. But they were quickly absorbed into labouring jobs where that didn't really matter. Textiles, mining, steel works, etc, etc.
I had the pleasure to meet a lot of retired textiles girls from Leicestershire- and they were very honest and open about it - they loved their job, had loads of fun and camaraderie and earned a decent crust. Nowadays, this just wouldn't be possible- and the youngsters have much higher expectations themselves anyway- and all want to work in IT or white-collar jobs where insufficient levels of literacy and numeracy are a real handicap and very noticeable.

Spot on, granjura. Thatcher murdered manufacturing and mining and said Britain would become a great financial service centre for the world. Well, we have seen what happened to that idea.
I used to run courses on the teaching of reading for primary and middle school teachers. My staff used different approaches and for some of the teachers it was an eye-opener as they had been taught one rigid method at teacher training college, pending on the outlook of the Head of primary education.
We don't know exactly how children learn to read, but it is probably different for each child. One will recognise a whole word,one will look for clues in the context or illustration, one will build up letter by letter, most will use all these skills. It is a myth that things were much better in the old days - when I volunteered for the Adult Literacy Scheme in 1972 it was estimated that there were two million illiterate adults in Britain. As granjura says, many were holding down responsible positions in industry. Now, they would be practically unemployable.

nelliedeane

Our daughter and sil have 'exposed' our grand-kids to books almost from day one. Always books around, and regular reading of stories, and always, always, stories at bed time, with the little ones around, looking at the book with dad or mum- or with us when we are there. We spent some time with our other daughter recently, at the same time as her step grand-son and his parents. I was struck by his lack of good communication and verbal skills- as he is exactly the same age as grand-daughter, 2 and half. After they'd left, I talked to this with my daughter, and she agreed the gap is huge. She said there are no books at all in their house, children or adults at all. No paper and pencils, paints, plasticine, playdough, pasta collage, scissors, etc. They usually watch TV, even at meal times, and that the difference is hardly surprising. Very sad really - and a reminder that some kids begin school already way 'behind', not because they are not bright, but because they have not been 'exposed' to many skills.

I've heard it said and I've read it several times that the pre-school years are the most important learning years a person ever has. That's when we learn our attitudes to learning and that's when we learn how to learn effectively in all sorts of ways, social and 'mechanical' as well as intellectual.

There may be a few cynical parents who just don't care if their children go to school or not or who take their children out of school in term times for no good reason but the way Government talks it's as if there are lots of such parents.

In most cases there will a good reason why children are absent and I think that there should be more effort put into finding out more about the children and their families to understand why.

Some children slip into undertaking caring responsibilities, unknown to the school or to others, because their disabled or ill parents are struggling to cope with no help. This is increasing as social care budgets are cut, and rather than consider these children as heroes or heroines as the media like to describe them - these are children who are denied a childhood because society chooses to forget them. These are families subjected to state abuse in my view.

The absence of the children from school may be because they are caring;looking after siblings; doing the housework; too tired to attend; haven't done homework and are frightened to say why; are being bullied for being different. Should these families be further penalised? They are already most likely to live in poverty because of the disability/ illness of the parent. Yet again Government has failed to understand the real issue. They have failed to find out why children are absent and suggest punitive action which will impact on some of the most vulnerable children

I agree that it is hugely complicated. This was discussed last night on Question Time - everybody agrees that fines are not the answer.

Huge efforts are made by the school to support vulnerable children, both academically and emotionally/psychologically. At the last school I worked at, not only Heads of year, but senior staff- would spend a mountain of time doing this, liaising with parents, staff, and all other agencies involved. Kids with truancy and other problems were mentored on a one to one basis all the time- trying to resolve issues and give the best support possible. If a child stays at home to care for sibblings or a frail parent- should we say, OK, that's fine, a good reason? Or should be try to find a solution for the care, so the child can go back to a normal education, and hopefully a brighter future?

However, the point I am trying to make, is that we owe it to the most vulnerable children to not just let them fall through the net- but have to try and find ways to keep them in school, so that THEY eventually can have more success and eventually be able to go forth. Anybody who says it is easy is of course mistaken.

I am afraid not all schools are as good as yours,juragran. I had a boy come in one morning looking tired and dishevelled. He told me he and his mother had had to sleep in the bus shelter because his drunken father had thrown them out. I got the canteen to give him something to eat, then took him to the head to ask if he could have a couple of hours in the medical room to rest. The head said to him ' Where is your tie?' I think we were both teaching about the same time - I hope all schools are now as good as yours.

Re literacy, the gap is huge at 5. Some children barely talking, others bursting with knowledge and loving to learn. My just 4 yr old GS knows all his consonant sounds (demon at I spy), recognises his numbers and a number of letters, writes his name and uses lots of long words, like "similar". He is not a "geeky" child and rarely sits and looks at books. (too active)
Hard for primaries to meet the needs of the full spectrum. For years our school had about 10% of intake who had not really even started to read. Things have improved a bit but we still have to have off a proportion into joint english/humanities group that have a very heavy focus on literacy because they are still at the cat sat not he mat stage of reading. Several TAs and a teacher with about 15 kids. Just one of the ways we are trying to catch them up - but the primaries have had them for 7 years!!! Frustrating.

Just out of interest, what proportion are boys, Jess? The gap between boys and girls in performance in writing remains one of the most difficult issues in primary schools.

Greatnan I always chose schools I'd work with very carefully. I could have never work in a school whose ethos was contrary to mine. As soon as I realised I didn't agree with the Head on many policies in teh school where I was senior teacher, I just left and sought another where I could totally get involved and truly believed in the way we were trying to tackle failure, truancy, etc, to support kids and families.

One could argue of course that staying in a school where kids are treated with such coldness as you describe, to try and balance things out, is really valuable in other ways, And I'd totally agree. Not for me though, I had to feel I could totally get behind what we were trying to achieve, together, staff, community, parents.

If the 'where is your tie' incident had happened when I was teaching, I think I would have mentioned, in the child's hearing, there and then, that the tie wasn't really the issue that morning.

I think from what you have said though, Greatnan, that your teaching career was quite a long time ago? I remember a head back in the eighties getting cross with me because I organised some toast for a child who was practically fainting from hunger. Now, of course, breakfast clubs are the norm. The care and wellbeing of pupils is an important part of what Ofsted looks at and I think the early rounds of Ofsted inspections in the nineties helped sort out attitudes and practices such as you describe.

Would a 4 term year rather than a 3 term year make a difference I wonder? Having a 5/6 week holiday - longer for some independent schools seems to cause more problems than it solves. Children probably forget what they've been taught, get bored and cause trouble whilst parents have to find child care for great chunks of time. More frequent breaks might benefit teachers as well - healthier way of living I would have thought for a pressurised job.

I am amazed at the level of worry there is over Ofsted inspections. Businesses have inspections every 6 months to ensure they comply with a wide range of standards. Failure to comply can mean the end of a business; yet the cost of compliance is considerable. Every country has its own way of operating too so there are compliances and inspections related to those. Bring out a new product and guess what? More inspections and cost. The pressure in these constrained times is heavy, believe me and we don't have long holidays in which to recover because of deadlines. I guess I'm being contentious here but I've been a teacher too and working outside of the school environment came as a real culture shock.

There has been some suggestion of changing the length of terms in the news, goldengirl, but it seems Teachers' Unions are against it...

Of course when I joined my comprehensive school in 1973 I had no idea what the attitude to 'my'pupils would be. I quickly learned, and if anybody thinks I would keep quiet about it they haven't read many of my posts! I made a huge fuss about the tie incident, and I stayed because I genuinely thought the remedial pupils needed someone who cared about them. I moved on only when I was offered the chance to run the Schools' Remedial Service, which meant I could 'spread the word' to every primary and middle school in The Wirral.
An even worse incident occurred with that particular headmaster, and it has haunted me ever since. A girl of about 12 told me in a roundabout way that her father and uncles were abusing her. I told the head, and he simply refused to believe that 'a good catholic family' could behave like that. This was before any child protection policies had been put into place and there was no method for me to go over his head within the education system. I rang the NSPCC and told them of my suspicions, but even there I received very little information - they also seemed reluctant to get involved, but they said they would consult with Social Services. I left the school soon after, but I have always wondered if I could have done anything more.

greatnan - mercifully, things are a little better when pupils report abuse.

in the sixties and seventies, it was common for young people not to be believed, but i remember one family having their father removed for abusing all his four children.

when they don't say directly, and teachers express concerns, though, it often leads to families moving on to avoid being investigated.

sometimes social services can't or won't do anything. in the nineties i had a pupil whose dad made her a prostitute. she was fourteen. a member of school staff took a social worker round to the house where the girl lived, and found two men there, her clients. social services wouldn't remove her because she wouldn't make a complaint. she had, however, tried to kill herself several times.

we have some pupils who are allowed to stay in school from early morning to late evening just to keep them out of their living accommodation as much as we can. we've had pupils who live in fields. literally, in fields, under bushes. not many , but some.

so things have improved a little but not much. and we can't make the world right.

You are quite right, granbunny - I think I was very naive when I entered teaching, even though I was 31. I really wanted to make a difference in the lives of children who were disadvantaged, as I had been. I had a few obvious successes, like getting the canteen to help me with a girl of 14 who desperately wanted to lose weight, but then there was the girl who had been taken into care because her mother was 'entertaining clients' in the family home and had introduced her to drugs. She was a very accomplished liar and I really fell for it. She told me her 16-year old sister had just had a baby, in care, and the only way she could see her was if I let her go out a lunchtime. Her big blue eyes swam with tears. Against all the school rules, I let her go. The police brought her back - she was found soliciting in the local park. She had been in five different foster homes and each time had accused the house-father of sexually abusing her,ruining their careers and sometimes their marriages. Years later, I saw her on TV , weeping and detailing her story of abuse. None of it was true, but it certainly got her a lot of attention. I felt so sorry for her, but I think perhaps too much damage had been done by the time she was 14.

When people talk about the good old days, I think of some of the stories I heard and devoutly hope that we never go back to them.

I t is very evident there is a difference of opinion between those in the teaching profession, either present or past, and those who are not. I have purposely not scribed for a while as I was interested in other opinions and felt I might have my mind changed. This has not happened so I reiterate my point made earlier. Truancy is to my mind slightly different to parents asking for permission to take a holiday, albeit marginal. Truancy must be stamped on as it is not acceptable, all I can say is good luck to those who are trying to do so.

My thought remains, is it not possible for either a zero tollerance by both teachers and parents to time off school, or an allowance of 5/10 days to be given with permission for children upto 10 years old. I fully accept children doing exams must not be taken away from their studies. I do not have a problem with either scheme but I do want a level playing field for all.

Teachers always say that whilst they have long holidays they are inevitably doing work for their teaching duties at home. What would happen if teachers were given the same holiday leave entitlements as the private sector? If the teaching profession had shall we say a generous 30 days plus bank holidays surely they would benefit by having a holiday without doing school preparations as the duties they say they carry out at home will be executed at their place of work.

bagitha made a perfectly valid point concerning taking children out of school for trips not requiring "catch up" lessons, not her words but mine. Teachers days will not be required and as for strike action we are all in the dark and it does appear that days will be lost and I fail to see how this is not a form of hypocracy if teachers say it is a deraliction of duty on parents part to take children out of school during term time.

I agree absolutely with your post in its entirety, POGS!

What would happen if teachers were given the same holiday leave entitlements as the private sector? If the teaching profession had shall we say a generous 30 days plus bank holidays surely they would benefit by having a holiday without doing school preparations as the duties they say they carry out at home will be executed at their place of work.

someone told me japanese teachers only teach two lessons a day because they do all their prep etc in the workplace. the standard of teaching is very high and pupils give feedback on the quality of lessons. i'd be interested to know if japanese children behave badly in school.

two of my colleagues are currently working on the timetable for next year. it is incredibly complicated. they work most nights, some weekends, and call 11pm their 'stop' time. for all this to be carried out in the workplace would mean employing many more teachers. it would be a much healthier way to work, though.

Do Japanese teachers have the same amount of holidays? I don't think so, discipline in Japanese schools is paramount. The parents and teachers work very closely and like all aspects of Japanese life hard work and sense of national pride, including good education, is highly regarded.

i don't know about the holidays. daughter has a friend living in japan, which is how i heard about the lessons.

I think there is generally more respect for the education system and so less issues with behaviour in lessons ...and so also a more productive system

I think the whole culture of conformism makes a difference in Japan too.