Throw away the key??

Interesting discussion on the difficulties on Today programme.
There is the clouding issue that the original complaint was not well handled I think.
The judge's comment is bizarre I think, implying that the crime was in some respects more serious because of the accused racial attitudes towards white girls.
What exactly is he getting at? There are versions of raping under age girls that could be MORE respectful if they happen to be the same ethnic group as the perpetrator? They wouldna dun nit if the girls had been Pakistani? What?

This is a bit like the good old days when judges thought rape victims more or less deserving of sympathy depending on their sexual history.
ALso the leak from the jury rumour does raise questions about the trial.

There are mixed views about whether it was racist or not. A man on the radio representing a Pakistani group thinks it was. I don't know but I did used to work for a man of Pakistani origin who certainly had different values for men and for women who worked for him and very, very different attitude to his wife and daughter than he did to us. This of course was just one man.

They weren't convicted because they are Asian, but because they had carried out some truly disgusting crimes. For them to use the 'racist' card is farcical. It is noticeable that they did not target any Asian girls.
I fear that many people have been afraid to protect girls who are beaten and even murdered by their own families in so-called honour killings, or forced into marriage because 'It is their culture'. Well, if that is so the culture needs changing and should not be allowed to flourish in Britain.

It"s absolutly heartbreaking and appalling what went on with these men and girls .

I am not sure what we are saying here? Is it racist to convict a person because they have committed a crime? Or are we saying that only Asian people who commit this crime are being arrested and committed? If the first is argued then that is rubbish, and if the second is true then it is disgraceful, and must be sorted immediately but either way the original perpertrators should still be punished. I think I must be missing the point here.

It's true that most of the gang grooming is committed by Asian gangs, but equally true that almost all internet grooming is committed by white males around the world.

I'm not convinced the Judge meant that the crimes themselves were more serious because of the race aspect, but that the fact that the gang targeted only white girls added a 'racist' aspect to their actions. Imagine the hue and cry if the men had been white and the girls Asian.

I agree Annobel but purely on the case of this sort of grooming it is much more prevalent among men of Pakistani origin than any other. There is no suggestion that other Asians are active in this way. I think the racism may be considered valid because they don't do it to any girls other than white. Other sexual crimes are committed by other racial groups e.g. Internet grooming is mainly white.

True , if it had been the other way around everyone would have being going mad

Yes Jacey.....throw away the key.

These crimes were committed in the locality where I worked before retiring. Young women that were under my supervision would get caught up with some of these pimps two or three years before this came to light. Offenders with a prostitution and drugs history were encouraged to take new girls along to flats in the town centre. They complained to each other about these men and the local police were informed. No formal complaints were made but much intelligence shared. I was told that these men despised white girls, and I guess this is where this issue has arisen, as they would have been questioned about their choice of victim and this could be reframed in court as a race issue i.e. the asian men being targeted and unfairly penalised by police and the criminal justice system because of their attitudes to white women. However, it doesn't matter whether they did or not - they knew how vulnerable many of the young women were, and used them to recruit younger girls.

The English Collective of Prostitutes are active in this area, and issue guidelines to young women to help them keep safe. Unfotunately, young women coming out of prison are vulnerable and willing to bring along other victims with the promise of gifts of money, drugs, alcohol and mobile phones. There are plenty more pimps still operating, but fewer women being released from prison to that area, as the hostel has now been moved to another county. Taxi drivers are significant in these offences - they pick up prostitutes and homeless girls and offer them free lifts or a bed for the night from the station and town centre.

Why on earth should these men be able to claim they were targeted and unfairly penalised by police etc. because of their attitudes to white women? Why shouldn't they be charged with racist behaviour themselves? Why is it that no 'minority' group is ever accused of racism? Surely this is wrong - it should cut both ways!

But it doesn't Anagram does it? I think in this case the police are in a very difficult situation because there have already been many demonstrations. If they were to say it was racist crime there would be a huge backlash and it is my belief that they are trying to avoid that.

It doesn't need to be called anything other than the abuse of children by adults that it is. The racist card is just being played because it can be – at least in part because we have such a huge guilt complex about our racist colonial history – not helped at all by demonstrations by white racists outside the court.

In theory, racism can cut both ways, and does. This may even be a case of it, but before that there is child abuse, there is rape and grooming, there is probable misogyny. What more is needed to lock these people up?

These young girls were targeted because they were available. A number of them were 'looked after' children and were out in the shopping area at night, frequenting the fast food outlet where some of these men worked. They were seen as an available commodity to be callously exploited for profit - no more, no less. White girls were targeted, I imagine, because girls of Pakistani origin are likely to be in more strictly controlled families.

My father had to deal with a case of inverted racism (if that is the right phrase) in his work. He was a teacher trainer. A trainee teacher who happened to be black failed his teaching practice. He accused my father of failing him because of racism. Wrong card to play with my dad. He explained to the young man that no, he had failed him because he was a rotten teacher and, what's more, a racist for assuming my dad would fail someone for anything else!

Fair enough, (good for your father, Bags!), but what annoys me is that the men in this instance seemed to have been trying to undermine the court case by suggesting that they themselves had been victims of racism, i.e. that if they had been white, they would have got off more lightly!

They might have tried it on Anagram but playing the race card won't work here. If the BNP want to get involved, it will infuriate the Appeal Court as much as any claim that they are being doubly penalised because they harmed white girls.

Bags and Anagram I agree with much of what you say. This is not the first case of Pakistani men grooming young white girls, I believe there is a similar case going on in the Oxford area at the moment where allegedly one of the victims is as young as 11. Ann Cryer, did much to highlight these problems when she was the MP for Keighley. I was just watching the BBC news tonight and a reporter interviewed an Asian man who said that it was the parents responsibility to see that their daughters were not roaming the streets at night. This really annoyed me he had no right to put the onus on to the parents for what has happened to these young girls, some of whom I believe were in the care system, which renders them extremely vulnerable as quite clearly care is not what they receive at all. There can be no justification for the way these men behaved. I saw a programme a while back, I think it may have been Dispatches on Channel 4 where some of the methods these men used to procure these youngsters were outlined. Seemingly in some schools, in northern towns young Pakistani boys would befriend young white female classmates by hanging out with them at local malls at the weekend. They would ingratiate themselves by buying them gifts etc. and when the girl had fallen for the boy he would take advantage of her introducing her to drugs and alcohol before passing her on to older men in their community. These were very young girls say 13 and most parents would be happy to let their children out to the mall on a Saturday afternoon because this is what kids do at their age. They would most probably not have been aware just how they were being groomed before it was too late and it seems a few years ago the police did very little to help in these cases because of being deemed racist. I think racism is appalling when it comes from either side but I can help feeling sometimes that there is a perception that it only goes one way. I doubt whether many people would remember the name Mary Anne Leneghan, a 16 year old girl who was tortured and brutally murdered by half a dozen black men a couple of years back. Her friend who was with her who survived, just, having been left for dead in a Reading Park. I'm not trying to imply that a case like Stephen Lawrence isn't awful and I was really glad when justice finally caught up with a couple of the racist thugs involved. However, lets not forget there are some very negative aspects that surround some cultures in the UK and it's not racist to acknowledge them.

I don't think there is a culture of asian men in Rochdale treating white girls so appallingly, but a gang of pimps who have groomed asian youths to bring young girls and older teenagers to them with offers of drink, drugs and presents. In turn, the older white teenagers have vulnerable lives and were easy to manipulate. I think the asian schoolboys are as much harmed by these men as the girls and their families.

The large majority of asian Rochdale men are as respectable and industrious as in any other large ethnic community, and equally shocked about these offences.

Two things struck me about this case. The men who exploited the girls are callous brutes, and would be whatever their ethnic heritage BUT why were the girls available to be preyed on? A man from the Pakistani community in Bradford was interviewed on radio today and said that his daughter wouldn't have ended up as a victim like this because she was at home in bed at night. If we give the impression that we don't value or care for our children, why should anyone else? The second point is: I frequently read and hear references to "under-age prostitutes". Are the men who exploit these girls prosecuted for child abuse? And if not, why? We are failing these girls and it isn't enough to blame their families. Some of them were actually 'looked after' by the local authority. Not very well, though.

Whenim64 Of course most of the Asian Rochdale men are respectable, but as in the awful goings on of abuse of children in the Catholic church, why oh why do Muslim religious leaders do so little to condemn these perverts.

Totally agree with greatnans post.

Rochdale? The same Rochdale of Cyril Smith and Lord Byron?
Not a happy place methinks.

Yes, that Rochdale johanna. Heywood is quite a depressing place, as are some parts of Rochdale, but most of it is surrounded by beautiful countryside in the Pennines and Rochdale itself is a thriving town.

There are some feisty feminist asian women living in Rochdale, many of them working with the statutory agencies and showing their fuddy-duddy relatives that they don't agree with oppressive traditions but do embrace the caring ones.