Throw away the key??

annobel that came on the radio as I was making a post this morning! She was v good i thought.

I agree with greatnan that one should always treat people as you would wish to be treated and base views of a person on how they are not where they are from.

Some of the posts on this thread have been making huge generalisations and based views about a race of people on the behaviour of a few or on anecdotal stories. That, to me, is racism.

Every racial group /nationality will have as many different people within it as any other: criminal, intellectual, feckless, hardworking etc etc. Everyone should be able to like /dislike a person because of what they know about them but not dislike them because they are English /Welsh/Pakistani or any other racial /national group.

I & family members, have been victims of racism and it is painful.

I recommend Yasmin Alibhai Brown's interview on Woman's Hour today.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01h75xr/Womans_Hour_Penny_Junor_on_Prince_William/

It's right at the start of the broadcast

I agree with all you say, baNana. Of course, there are other nationalities that have settled in Britain without much integration, such as the Chinese, but they have not tried to impose their own culture on the indigenous population. I think I remember the Archbishop of Canterbury saying that some part of Sharia law would be a good thing in Britain.
The concept of racism appears to be misunderstood by many people. To me, it just means that I judge everybody I meet as a person, not as a stereotypical member of any particular race. It does not mean that I have to approve, allow or embrace practices which are repugnant to me, or that I want the laws of the host nation to be altered at the behest of any immigrant group. I believe polygamy is practised by some immigrants and men are able to claim benefits for more than one wife. I have said elsewhere that the definition of marriage is not set in stone, but that does not mean that I agree with a new interpretation being used without due process of law.

Islam like other religions is patriachal and depending on which version of it you get, is ridden with misogyny. No doubt there are many Muslim women who live totally liberated and western lives and still manage to practice their religion without a problem. Nevertheless, it has to be also said that there are pockets of Muslims, be they of Pakistani, Somali or various other nationalities that have settled here who live lives of compete separateness and who have no affiliation to the parent culture of this country. I can understand how they would view certain aspects of modern day England as repugnant such as the excesses of drink and the way some of our young of all backgrounds drink, dress and conduct themselves in public. I feel successive governments in the name of multiculturism have turned a blind eye to some of the more negative aspects of their culture, which is why the powers that be have known about the abuses of the young white girls for so long but did little to stop it. Greatnan referred to the first cousin marriages practised which I understand are implemented to keep the wealth in the family but these marriages come at great cost as they consequently produce a disproportionate number of birth defects. Often the cousin is brought over from Pakistan and doesn't speak English, these unions are not always happy and I've heard they have been mooted as an excuse as to why these men behave in the despicable way they have with vulnerable girls. Aside from honour killings, the horrible covering of the face aspect, which I think depersonalises women and yes I know some claim that's their decision, can there be anything more vile than female circumcision? In my opinion if we allow these practices to flourish we might as well be living back in the Middle Ages.
I myself was raised as a Catholic and they like to pretend they venerate women but they really only used to view women in two ways Madonna, not the singer!, or whore. In other words you can live a virtuous life as wife and mother, or not. Maybe things have moved on since I used to go, but I'm not sure, but they do seem to be fighting a losing battle these days. Since the abuse of children scandals have gained momentum, Catholicism seems to have lost it's stranglehold on Ireland in particular where church attendance amongst the young is down massively. Similarly, traditional Southern European countries such as Italy and Spain have some of the lowest birth rates in the developed world so it's quite apparent that they are not following the Pope's directives on birth control. It would be good to think that Muslim women could also throw off some of the shackles of their religion because both these religions are designed by men to keep women in their place.

It sounds a really interesting experience, Alison. I don't think many countries can be critical of corruption in India - there is plenty of it elsewhere. I am very glad that education is free because educating girls is the best route out of over population and poverty.

Greatnan It was all northern India but we did get quite close to 'normal' people because it was a private trip and we could do what we liked. I'm sure you are right about there still being a lot of poverty there but it was less than we expected. They are doing so much about it all through education that I feel it won't be too long before they are ahead of us in many areas. You see small children in uniform going to school with no shoes on and this is because poor people are paid to send their children to school and they are also fed at school. Universities are cheap and if you want to go abroad for your university education the state pays half and if you cannot afford the other half you get a loan. They do still have too much beaurocracy and quite a lot of corruption but they seem to recognise this and are doing something about it. It is also quite common to marry outside your own religion there. We want to go back and explore more.

I will never forget the newspaper reports about Peter Sutcliffe which said the police were appalled when he murdered an innocent girl - as if the prostitutes deserved to be killed.
It is not so long ago (certainly in my lifetime) when the police thought domestic violence was amusing, and mention of rape in the House of Commons was greeted with some laughter. Even some judges have remarked on a rape victim's 'provocative' clothing.
One of Cardinal Sean Brady's excuses for the non-reporting of child abuse was that the Irish police would have done nothing. (Although I think that if an institution as powerful and influential as the church had really wanted something to be done the Garda might have had to act).

WE have come a long way but we have a lot further to go in the battle to safeguard women and children - and some men.

These thugs have certainly shamed their community. We can only hope that the case might change some attitudes.

I believe the person in that position before him was also of asian origin Barrow. It beggars belief why complaints were not pursued, but having worked there with prostitutes who have been assaulted, I have seen different responses depending on who picks up the complaint. There is a Nightingale Centre for Greater Manchester which includes specialist police officers who understand that vulnerable women are not all squeaky clean but still have a genuine complaint, and they are very helpful, as is the Rape suite and the Royal Infirmary, where the police will take forensic evidence within hours of the complaint being made. I get very annoyed and frustrated with sexist police who only want to be helpful to 'innocent and respectable' women and girls - all need support if they have been harmed.

As I understand it one of the girls reported what was going on to the police several years ago and although the police investigated the CPS decided not to prosecute. It was only when someone else took over the CPS office that he decided the case should be looked at further and that resulted in the case which has just been heard. I think it is worth noting that the new person at the CPS was of Asian origin himself. I wonder if the people in the position before him were afraid of being labelled as racist if they brought the prosecution which is why nothing was done - just a thought.

Alison, what a fascinating view of India - which parts did you vist?
In my experience many immigrants from and to any country make the move because they want the best for themselves and their children - they are not necessarily representative of the whole of their nation.
Certainly immigrants from India to Britain have a remarkable work ethic and their children go on to be successful in higher education and the professions.
I think you will find that there is still a lot of child poverty in India but I expect most tourists don't get to see it.

Yes, it is sadly too late for some of the victims of clerical abuse, who have committed suicide.

when - It is heartening to read your post (9.58) in addressing the harm that has been done to vulnerable young girls, and that all agencies need to look at the after-care that should be provided, but is so often lacking.

The legacy of the trauma is sometimes forgotten, once the criminals have been convicted and sentenced. Their crime does not stop there.

Alison, it was stated in some of the news reports that the men themselves (or their solicitors) were trying to imply some sort of bias against them by the police and the CPS on racist grounds. No one on here supported that view, but it was discussed so you may have got the wrong impression.

Greatnan My reading of some of the posts was that people thought someone was being racist towards these criminals.

I do feel that the Pakistani culture is rather different from some other Asian cultures which is why I feel we should not label them all the same.

We were in India last year and felt that their culture was not so different from ours except they put more stress on education than we do. The Indians seem to look forward rather than backward which we felt was very refreshing. Many years ago I worked in engineering in Birmingham in an Indian area and it was obvious then how hard they worked and wanted better for their families in a way our white workers did not. When we closed the factory down they all just accepted it and got on with their lives and didn't complain at all. They understood what the reasons were.

I just feel that Asia is a large continent and they should not all be labelled the same any more than the Eyropeans should all be thought of as one 'type'

I try to treat my posts the way I treat my packing - put it all in and then take half of it out!

My first supervisor as a probation student took a look at an essay I had written, and said 'well done - it's all there - every pertinent point and a good analysis of the offence. Only trouble is that you've put it in there with a scatter-gun instead of organising it briefly and concisely. Go and trim it down!'

30 years later, I am still learning to trim it down!

haha! I can waffle too! I thank my English teacher Mrs Bennet! She made us do loads of editing, synopses and summaries. I am a great one for writing huge, angry letters to get things off my chest..could never send them as they were too rude so learned then to edit them so I could send them!! Listen to Woman's Hour now talking about this! (not waffling!) the case of the current Asian case.

It will be good to see as much effort put into supporting the vulnerable females who have been harmed, as is put into analysing the motivations of these offenders at all levels - media, criminal justice system and the communities where these girls live. Sadly, too many young people who have been harmed are supported until the conviction is achieved and then suddenly forgotten. They have to come to terms with what has happened to them, and will need years of support. I hope they are able to access it.

Yes, an excellent post, as usual, when.
Alison - nobody here has suggested that the law was racist in prosecuting them - what makes you say that?
Most of us use the term Asian as it is quicker than saying Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi etc. It does not imply anything critical of any particular ethnic group.

Apart from the horror of young women being forced into marriage by their families, there is a real problem in marriage between cousins. There is a disproportionate number of birth defects in babies born as a result of family intermarriage. The fear of being labelled racist may prevent medical professionals speaking about this just as some schools were reluctant to report girls who had gone 'on holiday' and been forcibly married.

As for misogyny - the powerful rarely give up their power voluntarily so I suppose we must applaud the men of those nations which have finally recognised that women are fully human! Of course, there are some institutions that are lagging behind!

nanaej I wish I could encapsulate what I wanted to say in as concise a way as you have. I think I should have the Gransnet prize for waffling on.....

These men committed nasty crimes and, quite rightly, have been caught & punished. The police did not believe it was racially motivated because the men were not looking for white girls specifically, just vulnerable girls. It turned out they were white girls. I guess the police have seen similar crimes over the years perpetrated by white gangs. Paedophile gangs that have been caught have been predominantly white.

The reasons for these crimes I expect are complex and appalling but will include issues of class, culture and misogyny as well as loss of moral compass.

I know many people of Arab origin. They would be appalled at the inappropriate behaviour described by Joan .

DCI Mary Doyle makes some pertinent comments in this article. Mary is one of the police officers I have worked closely with over about 10 years - she works closely with all communities in Rochdale and Oldham, and chairs multi-agency public protection meetings and 'Gold' meetings between leaders of the council, police, probation, forensics, when nationally high profile cases are being managed in the community.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/may/09/rochdale-grooming-trial-race?newsfeed=true

Thanks, when. It is good to read your informed and thoughtful posts.

There is a higher proportion of African/Carribean men in prison for sexual attacks on girls than Asians, and the statistics for identifying the race of their victims are not available. The stats vary to reflect different parts of the country e.g. in London there has been heavy sex trafficking of eastern European girls into fictitious 'nanny' jobs for British families, but they have been threatened and virtually imprisoned by sex rings of men from a variety of races. Police are challenged in trying to profile both perpetrators and victims as recruitment is done on the internet, and girls are either smuggled over or arrive as visitors, then disappear.

In metropolitan areas there will always be a racial mix of criminals, and it's easy to look for the racist view of offences, when the issue is criminality and access to potential victims. If someone has the urge to commit a sexual crime, they need the opportunity and means to do it, a chance to remove the potential victim from their protectors, whether that be parents or friends, a way of overcoming that victim's resistence, by threat, bribery or grooming, and a way of keeping them quiet afterwards. Asian men are not generally socialised into committing sexual crimes - these are men who would be criminals if they lived in any country, and their choice of victim would relate to who they could prey on, even in Pakistan or other south Asian countries.

Criminals are criminals - profiles of their offending will often show that sex attackers are generally criminal, and will have other convictions for theft, stealing cars, driving whilst drunk or without insurance, possessing weapons and so on. These particular men also deal drugs and will pimp girls and women, take their money, sell them the drugs they introduced them to, and sell their services to other men. That isn't in any way related to Asian cultures, which are many and varied. They didn't learn this at their parents' knee, nor in the mosque. We criticise those strict Asian parents who reject their children for making relationships from other cultures, criticise them for not sharing information with the police, criticise them for protecting their own, but if you wandered into the deprived streets of central Manchester where communities of predominantly white, poor people live, you would find something to criticise there, too. It isn't exclusive to Asian communities. If you want an example of communities protecting their own from the police, there's no better example than some of the districts on whcih the programme Shameless has been modelled. I only watched it a couple of times - it was too much like being at work!!

I'm surprised by 2 elements of these posts:

1 Why we are talking about 'Asians' when this was crime commited by Pakistanis only.

2 The suggestion that the law was racist in prosecuting them, I thought the racism was from them targetting white girls and not Pakistani girls.

I truly believe that men from Pakistan have a different attitude towards women than men of a different origin. My DiL is of Pakistani origin and would not marry a Pakistani under any circumstances. She has no contact with her father and brother because of their attitude towards women. Her parents are divorced. Although her mother is very western in most things she believes men should be given priority at meal times and can't understand my son cooking meals and doing everything his wife does in the home. She won't speak to her other daughter's fiancee because he is Hindu! I think there is a long way to go before these attitudes change and it is not helped by the authorities pretending that racism is only white on black.