Throw away the key??

A muslim man speaking to Richard Dawkins on a programme he made was ranting about white women. The expression he used was "Look at your women! You allow them to dress in [such and such] a fashion."

Dawkins' response was revealing of the difference in attitude: "They are not my women or our women. They make their own minds up about how they dress."

Allowing for the 'dictates' of fashion, a huge gulf in the attitudes of men from different cultures is obvious here. Asian girls do not have the freedom of others because the culture they come from does not regard them as having the same rights or individual freedom of choice that other cultures now accept as the norm.

I'm glad the judge handed out the sentences he did and did not fall for the racism card - these men , what every colour or creed, had targeted these young girls for their nasty purposes. I discussed this with an British Asian of Pakistani origin at work yesterday. One of the things she high lighted was the freedom young/black women have in this country compared to their Asian counterparts. Especially amongst the more religious and also those girls whose parents or grandparents were born in Pakistan. [she is 4th generation]. These girls go to school and university of course but there is no going out in the evening on the town. Her uncle is a Bradford taxi driver and is horrified at the sight of skimply dressed, very young drunk girls out all hours behaving with overtly sexual actions . Their girls stay at home with their parents and any socialisation is within their own community and always with older people in town. So young Asian boys and or men think that British white girls are up for it. These men took it one step further.

I think the real problem is misogyny, whatever the 'race' or culture of the men involved. No man who respects females, no man with any decent self- respect therefore, would do these horrendous things. I think it is true though that some cultures are more inclined to be misogynistic than others. Our own western culture is still hauling itself out of misogyny by its boot straps.

I know you are right about the disproportionate numbers of non-whites in prison, but I wonder what the mix is between African/Caribbeans and Asians?
Given that there are so many more white men than non-whites in the UK, you would expect that they would figure in greater numbers in all kinds of crime.
I know there are many Asian men who respect the equality of women, but the police did say that when investigating 'honour' killings or attacks they found it difficult to get information from the local community. I feel great sympathy for any young woman brought up in the UK, possibly having attended university there, who finds herself still being controlled by her father and brothers. This applies not only to Asians, but also to some Turkish and African communities.

Prostitution and trafficking are so profitable that they have always attracted organised gangs - in the 1950's there were several high profile cases where Maltese men were pimping women. I don't think they had any racial bias, though - it was purely a financial operation.

Doesn't that also apply to those predatory white men who see unaccompanied girls as easy pickings when they are out alone at night? The prison population is unfairly represented by ethnic minorities, at double the percentage of those in the general population, but the overwhelming majority of men who attack girls and get prison sentences are white.

Well, I agree with those Asians, whenim64 the vast majority are decent people, and certainly most are happy to see those men put away.

However, until there is a wholesale meeting of minds, culturally, between Asian and Anglo, there will always be this kind of danger. Because the truth is, in Asian culture, the behaviour of those young lasses, going out at night, unsupervised, talking to men etc puts them beyond the pale. In anglo culture, they are seen to be putting themselves in danger, and should be protected from themselves.

Joan what a scary experience. My heart sinks when I hear accounts like yours, because I know the asian families of some of my friends and ex-colleagues would be equally horrified about behaviour like this, and would be protesting that all asian men should not be tarred with the same brush.

Racism is in the background of this affair - the racism of the Asian men in targeting unprotected white girls. It is a cultural clash of the worst kind.

Many years ago, around 1965, I was dating a Syrian Muslim medical student in Vienna. We were both around 20. I told him I would not have sex with him, which he accepted, but we enjoyed each others company, and would have a kiss and a cuddle.

It ended amicably when i went back home, but I bumped into him a year or so later when i was back in Vienna on a translating job. He asked if he could show me his new student quarters. I went, he locked the door behind me and announced that as a liberated white western girl I had the right to have sex with him, and I'd been ridiculous when we were going out together to refuse this! I was utterly astounded, told him to open the door and let me out. He did so, reluctantly, then (while safely in the doorway) I told him that my rights included the right to say no, the right to not have sex if I chose not to, the right to have my own agenda whatever any boyfriend might think.

I never saw him again, never wanted to, I'm not sure if he even understood where I was coming from, but it did indicate the utterly hopeless chasm between cultures.

This same chasm is evident in those disgusting men. They just cannot see that women and girls have rights, and adults have a duty of care and protection to vulnerable children. Those girls had no value whatsoever to them - they were just objects to be used. The fact they had the freedom to roam the streets, and Asian girls rarely have that freedom, made it all OK in their nasty little racist minds.

PS
That Syrian ex-boyfriend came from Homs. I can't help worrying a little bit about him and his family in spite of his idiocy!

There was a case recently in Rotherham where a girl was murdered because she had confronted the families of the two men she had had affairs with. This shamed them so to preserve their families' honour, they killed her.

Keith Vaz really is a mealy mouthed useless individual saying something along the lines of lets not open a "Pandora's Box" as far as race is concerned. No one is trying to imply that all men of Asian Muslim men behave in this way. Nevertheless, there have been a number of these cases now and there is another going on in Oxford at the moment which will no doubt have a similar outcome. Ann Cryer retired MP for Keighley has written about these problems many times, mainly because it took so long to be recognised. It's quite apparent that the Asian male perpetrators of these awful abuses have little regard or respect for young white girls,often who were little more than children. If white men were specifically grooming say young Asian, less likely I know as they tend to come from stricter backgrounds, or black girls, I bet he'd sure as hell be using the race card. Shall we just pretend it's not happening so we don't offend any one ethnic group.

Yes, I'm sure the families of most of the men involved were as horrified as anyone else - the men would not have been going about it openly. The sad thing is that I'd be surprised if any of them felt a bit of remorse.

Anagram asian girls who remove themselves from the 'protection' of their family are, sadly, villified still by some asian men, and they would have been seen as 'fair game' if working on the streets. There are a few asian prostitutes working in Rochdale, but none involved here.

These men are not a welcome part of their own community - they have brought shame and disgrace to their families as far as they are concerned. How long that will last remains to be seen - lots of parents 'disown' their sons when they commit serious offences but support them further down the line, same as any other parent.

Why are you sure, when? From what I've read and seen in documentaries, the type of Asian men involved in these practices would not have approached Asian girls, however vulnerable, because it would reflect badly on them in their own community. As you said in a previous post, they despise white girls and think they have 'loose morals' because they aren't protected as strictly as their own female relatives, and have been brought up in a different culture.

I think these men went for who they could get access to, and they knew where to look for vulnerable girls, using asian youths to bring some in, and young women prostitutes to bring other girls along. Hardly any of those targetable groups were asian females, but if there had been asian prostitutes amongst those vulnerable groups, they would have been dragged in, too, I'm sure.

I think there is a scandal of the same proportions as the clerical abuse story waiting to break - and that is the way that children in 'care' in Britain have such terrible outcomes. They are disproportionately represented in prison and many are working as prostitutes whilst they are ostensibly still under the care of the local authority.

JessM, I think that in this case the girls were definitely targeted because they were non-Asian. The men involved would not have targeted Asian girls, for many reasons.

johanna, you know I love you really!

I recently read the Call the Midwife books set in the east end in the 1950s. There is a story in there about a young irish girl who is groomed into prostitution in a very similar way.
Young vulnerable women + organised prostitution. Where you have prostitution you are inevitably going to have some under 16 year olds involved. It's about men using women as objects. Maybe there is something going on about which groups of men are involved in organised crime?
I don't think the girls were targeted because they were non asian, but because they were available.

Jacey, the racist card appeal will be seen for what it is....nonsense. I know what I'd like to do with them......

anagram
Oh, sorry, lots of threads seem to meander.
Miaow to you too.

Another interesting fact to ruin Rochdale's reputation, Hitler saw their beautiful town hall and decided he would requisition it for himself, pledging to have it taken down and shipped to Germany.

Yes, I know that, johanna! I just wondered what relevance it had to the ongoing discussion....

anagram
I think they were both born in Rochdale.
Both ended up with blighted reputations.

Byron also fought in the Greek war of Independence.
Bet they could do with him now...........................

baNANA who says the religious leaders do not condemn these men? Of course they do and most vociferously. Quite a few Rochdale council leaders and local government officials are asian, and there are several community groups educating asian youths about offenders/pimps who will try to groom them to participate in this behaviour. One of the fathers of a member of this gang took his son to the police himself. You may have seen other circumstances in other towns where religious leaders have covered up for muslim men, but when I was still working in that town we were having regular meetings with religious leaders about drug dealing and pimping, and they were the ones that asked the police if they could collaborate in helping to change things in that community.

Cyril Smith and Lord Byron? What....?