For Newsnight: should we end universal benefits for better off pensioners?

Are suggesting we behead our politicians? A little extreme surely!

Yes, we have paid NI all our working lives but ever since it was introduced, governments have treated it like all other taxes and have gambled on being able to pay pensions, health care and all other benefits out of tax income. Now they can't. The same applies to some public sector pensions as well; instead of setting up invested funds to pay occupational pensions, the income was used for any and all government expenditure. They didn't even consider whether income from working people's NI matched expenditure on non-working people's pensions and benefits until they realised it wouldn't! When Robert Maxwell used the Daily Mirror pension fund for other purposes, it was called fraud. When Charles 1 used ship-money for other purposes, it led to the Civil War and to his execution. Surely, there is a lesson there?

If you have a UK old age pension you get an S1 form which transfers a sum of about 3000€ per annum from the UK to France. A similar sum is transferred for French pensioners in the UK. It is an EEC wide arrangement so would apply in Germany if you have a UK state pension based on your contributions. We don't have a UK address.
We also get no reductions for bus fares, museums etc. We get 70% of our medical costs paid and have to have a top-up insurance for the other 30%, approximately 140€ a month for us.

I read what it is like in France with interest. Mamie since when do pensioners living abroad get money towards their health costs? Not all do. That is probably an arrangement beween the UK and France and perhaps you have an address in the UK.
If you have normal wage related pension in Germany you get NOTHING else! you pay for every bus ticket and gas bill etc. Reductions in Museums and theatres are non existent.
We get free teeth, ear and eye tests but no free glasses, fillings or hearing aids.
Our health insurance (far more than N Insurance ) was always expensive but the standard is high. The more sick you are, the better you are looked after.
For most other aches and pains you pay for yourself or at least a part of the cost.

I have to admit most German houses and flats are warm enough and draught proof.
I feel that in the UK many of those using free bus-passes could afford to pay but means testing would swallow all money that was saved.

Couldn't agree more the SA and the deposit guarantee board (local) are my favourites!

jeni that is how it works but then maybe if you decide to pocket the case and give the charity money from your pension it is taxable money?

We have some friends who keep saying they don't need the winter fuel allowance and that people like us shouldn't get it. When I asked them what they do with it they said 'it just goes in the pot'. We all have the option to give it to charity if we like and I would prefer to do that than give it to the government because the charities I support would use it wisely.

I suppose it all depends on what you would call a 'better off' pensioner. If it is anyone not claiming benefits it is just downright unreasonable. If it is anyone getting pensions of over £50k then there are so few that it would probably cost more to administer than they would get back.

I think some of us give it to charity. If you gift aid it does the charity then get more as it is tax free? Or I suppose that since you pay the charity out of your funds on which you have paid tax then they can!
Interesting, so you get £300 which you then write a cheque to charity for and the charity reclaims the tax you haven't paid and gets more!
Is this logical
Any accountants out there?

gillybob, I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that a young family in any part of the country could be on the breadline and freezing. That's what benefits are for - if this theoretical family claimed everything it was entitled to, including housing benefit, there should be enough money to heat at least some of the house/flat.

hermitcrab so your young neighbours have 2 cars, motorbikes and live in a £330,000 house well I never.

They are quite clearly not poor. I don't know what area you live in but I can assure you that here in the North East you could buy several houses for that £330,00 price tag and there are many poor young families who will never own a house of any price, let alone a car or motorbike.

I am sorry but I can't agree to the better off pensioners getting the winter fuel allowance when a young family on the breadline are freezing and unable to pay to heat their home.

Hold a REAL NOT VIRTUAL party in Downing st!
Might stir them up a bit!

When is the next one?

How would pensioners rebel, though? They can hardly go on strike...

Hi absentgrana maybe you should sign the e petition

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/16387

i have , but as far as the poor young are conserned our near neibours have 2 cars 2 motor bikes go away every weekend and live in a £330.000 house much larger and more expensive than ours but i am afraid its bash the oap's again for their pitance so the young can have everything they consider they need for their lifestyle without saving for it .
we have gone without the whole of our lives and now the gov. are finding more ways to steal of us . All oap,s should join up and kick these thieving poiticans out of office .
Mind you the politicians of all persuasions are tard with the same brush but if we all stood up and rebeled maybe we might get somwhere.

I'm on Mamies side! I also work and pay tax! Some benefits are not 'exportable' even if we have paid for them some are exportable to the EEC but not to outside! It's all very complicated and I'm glad I don't do that sort of tribunal. That's legal eagle stuff!

No idea Alison. It partly seems to be based on the misconception that it is 30 degrees all year round once you get to Calais. You also seem to get all this stuff about deserting the UK, which I find truly bizarre. Although pensioners abroad receive a contribution to their medical costs from the UK, on the whole I would think they save the British government money. I know the winter fuel allowance paid abroad is only 1% of the total.

mamie why do they rant about you? What is wrong with choosing to live somewhere else?

Thank you Annobel . Like Greatnan, I still pay tax in the UK as well as here in France and have, as you say, worked and contributed all my life for my pensions. In no way do I regard the UK as a sinking ship and I have to say the only time I do despair is when I read the English tabloid newspapers and the ridiculous comments people write underneath the articles; pensioners who live abroad being one of the favourite subjects for ranting.

The only 'perk' I get is the Winter Fuel Allowance - it can get quite cold here in the Alps! As I am non-resident, free prescriptions, eye tests, bus passes, etc. are not available to me. However, I pay tax on my UK government pensions and I would be happy to pay more tax if they adopted the idea of keeping all the benefits and just taxing them.
I know I am lucky in having been able to build up a reasonable pension income and I have no resentment against anyone who needs more help.

Hi AlisonMA One persons idea of "not earning very much" and another's is very different and without getting into who earns what, I know how hard up many young working people are. I take my grandchildren to and from school twice a week which is situated bang in the middle of a large council estate. I can see it with my own eyes. I know many of the teachers in the school very well and they tell me things that are enough to bring tears to your eyes. Poverty is all around us. Some people just choose not to see it. (I don't mean you Alison) I mean the people who can make a difference.

Because it actually isn't.

Why indeed AlisonMA?

absent I think it is appalling that your pension is frozen when you leave the UK. You paid in and should be entitled to it. Why do they call it National Insurance if it isn't?

deserving I am already entitled to my state pension and all that goes with it (bus pass, winter fuel allowance etc.) on the basis of the years of NI paid. I am, in fact, still working and paying income tax. However, next year I shall be emigrating in order to spend the final years of my life near my only daughter and my only grandchildren. As it happens, the UK government will freeze my state pension at the level it stands at when I leave the country. As I shall still be paying tax in the UK because I own investment property (in lieu of a private pension), this seems doubly unfair.

btw If you think the UK is a sinking ship, then you can hardly blame people for wanting to abandon it.

Gilly I do just wonder how many young people really are as hard up as you think. My DS1 and DiL don't earn very much and have very little left when they have paid for childcare. They each work 4 days a week so they can spend time with their children. Their trips out are to the park and occassionally something else but they don't complain as they know that this is the price they pay to have their 2 children. They live in a tiny 2 bedroomed terraced house and the last time they went out on their own was September for their wedding anniversary and then it was only to Nando's. Neither of them drink or smoke.

They don't have much and therefore don't spend it and never go into debt as they know that it would cost more in the long run.

I repeat, getting old is mandatory, having children is a choice.

iwanttoretire too, but not on the back of the suffering of our young people. In an ideal world we would all be able to retire at a fair age when we are still young enough to make the most of our time, we should all be able to expect a fair amount to live on with a little extra for some luxuries, but you know what? things are not fair.

Everyone knows that people are on the whole living much longer and therefore more reliant on the state for much longer. My own granny is 96 !

I am sorry but I cannot agree that well off pensioners should receive free passes, winter fuel allowances and the likes when there are hard working young people who cannot afford to heat their homes or feed their children.

I know that any government who ends these freebies will effectively lose the next election but surely that is simply buying votes on an "I don't give a hoot about how the younger generation will pay for it all as long as I'm all right Jack" basis.

deserving, I'm leaping to Mamie's defence although she is well able to defend herself. She has worked hard all her life - in this country - and has a perfect right to the benefits she has paid for, no matter where she lives. The fact that she gets a pension is nothing to do with luck - it's been paid for.