The perils of outsourcing

But Nightowl why is it outsourced if it is not better? lf the public sector people who arranged the outsourcing contract had done their job properly then the contract would be such that it had to be as good as in the public sector and if they were managing the outsourcing properly it would be as good.

I have managed contractors so do know what is involved.

Mamie people in the private sector work long hours as well! I hardly saw DH until DS1 was about 10. In my last job I had to leave my latop on 24/7 in order to deal with problems that were being passed round the globe on a 'follow the sun' basis. I could get a call at any time and have to deal with it immediately.

Sorry Alison I didn't explain that bit - just that on one comparison site, the contracted hours were said to be lower in the public sector. I was just pointing out that it didn't mean a lot.

Alison, of course I am aware that certain portions of the press are full of spite and envy - I said I had not met it personally.
Clearly, in view of the latest fiasco and especially in view of the total disaster described by Mamie, re the placing of children, the private sector is not universally good.

Greatnan I reiterate that the person who placed the contract must take some responsibility. No resonable person would sign a contract that gave the contractor carte blanche to perform or not and no reasonable person would outsource something without overseeing that the contract was being fullfilled.

This seems to be degenerating into a them and us discussion but it is not that simple. Both sides are culpable.

Sorry, nightowl, it was your post about the children being badly placed - thank you for it.

That's ok Greatnan, it's getting a bit confusing with so many issues involved. Alison I believe the services are outsourced because it is perceived to be a cheaper option - fewer overheads and a leaner public sector. Unfortunately I think the quality of the service is not really considered and the results speak for themselves. I agree with you that if the people doing the outsourcing did their jobs properly these problems shouldn't arise but many of them don't seem to know what they are doing. I still can't help thinking that these services shouldn't be privatised in the first place; I don't think a business model can be applied to social care.

Of course it is the responsibility of the people who give the contract to hold the contractors to account, Alison, but equally people who take huge sums of money for doing the work also have an obligation, do they not? Sometimes it is made to sound as if they cannot be trusted to do anything without the people who commission the work standing over them.

Exactly Mamie as I said, both sides are culpable. I wouldn't order an extension to the house and then just let them get on with it without supervision. The principle is exactly the same. It is not necesary to 'stand over them' but proper provision needs to be made to ensure the contract is complied with. This is just normal business practice.

nightowl but those people who 'don't know what they are doing' are the ones in the public sector people are saying should be doing the jobs!

This has turned into a circular argument!

No Alison the people doing the outsourcing have been employed to do that. If there were no outsourcing they would not be there. They have, or had, staff who were more than capable of providing the services and managers to manage them but they were got rid of so that different managers could be employed to do the outsourcing. It is circular and there is inefficiency in both the private and public sectors but while we are trying to run social care as a business this is the type of muddled thinking that will carry on.

Nightowl are these people still employed? If I had made such a bod job of my work I would have been sacked. It might have taken a few months as I would have to go through a PIP but then I would have been sacked. Does this happen in the public sector? I understand it is very rare for a teacher to be sacked but I don't know about any other areas.

I am concerned that some contracts are awarded, in both local and national government, without a proper tendering process. The person awarding the contract sometimes has some connection with the firm receiving it, or goes on to work for that firm or a related company. Private Eye has detailed many examples, and so far nobody has sued!

I think some outsourcing is fairly easy to manage with a conventional business model. I used to commission and manage a lot of outsourced training and that was fairly straightfoorward. Something like social care is much harder because the issues are so complex and expertise takes years to develop. Local Authorities have lost a lot of highly skilled and experienced people because of cuts and you can't acquire those skills overnight.

Look at ATOS for a "good" example of outsourcing being better!

And Capita (or Crapita, as PE has dubbed it) continues to be awarded contract after contract.

there are a lot of European rules about tendering are there not? Press complain bitterly when a non uk company wins a contract. I think the days of giving contracts to your buddies are long gone.
There are also things called KPIs - key performance indicators which are normally part of ongoing contracts.
It is hard, nay impossible, to accurately compare private and public sector pay and conditions. People often cite the highly paid in private sector (and IT is more highly paid than most) forgetting there are also lots of low paid jobs on call centres etc that are far less secure and well paid than , say, nurses.
My observation is:
In some parts of public sector it is still possible to get away with being lazy because job security is much higher in their unionised environments. It is down to professionalism when people work long hours.
In private sector management grades often work extremely hard - and if they don't they won't survive. Ways will be found to move them on.
Pensions, on average, are much better in the public sector. much. In terms of what you get for the amount you pay in.
index linked schemes for instance are rare in private sector.
And let us never forget that without the private sector generating wealth there would be no public sector, at all.

Hear, hear!

Jess once again you have put it so well.

Is it really so simple? I have always worked in the public sector and I can assure you jobs are no longer secure, and unions have far less power than they used to. My son works in the private sector and is honest about the sheer laziness that is allowed to flourish there. Yes there are high earners and low earners in both environments but a better comparator for a call centre worker would be someone like a home care worker, not a nurse who is professionally qualified. I agree with the earlier comment (sorry I can't remember who said it) that this should not become a them and us discussion. We all work hard (or have done) and all contribute to society.

I am afraid it is simply not true that there is no chicanery involved in awarding contracts . I am not talking about the contracts being given to foreign companies, but to the family or cronies of the people awarding them. If this is not the case, then Pressdram are taking huge risks by exposing this kind of thing in every issue of Private Eye. It is particularly prevalent in Local Government.
As for this being turned into a 'them and us' type of discussion - I think you will find that most of the flak is being directed against public sector employees, thousands of whom are facing redundancy, including nurses and the police.
I have no quarrel whatsoever with employees in the private sector, having worked in both sectors as well as being self-employed.

Greatnan you are right, the flak does seem to be directed towards the public sector and we are under threat. After more than 30 years in the public sector my own job is now at risk.
You are also right about the chicanery in awarding contracts. I am aware of very dubious practices in relation to my own local authority. I am trying to decide how to whistle blow effectively.

You could write to Private Eye! I get an e-mail every week from an organisation that was set up especially to advise and protect whistleblowers. Have you tried googling 'How to be a whistleblower'?

I looked up my e-mails - the organisation is called Public Concern at Work.

Thanks for that Greatnan I will look into it. I think I was making the mistake if looking within the organisation and I have seen what happens to people who do that - they get driven out and the corrupt people keep their jobs.

Absolutely!

nightowl - you are wise to be cautious. I have read so many stories of people within the NHS who tried to alert the authorities to dangerous or illegal practices and were forced from their jobs. Occasionally, they are paid off with a gagging clause.
Somebody must have known that the surgeon who butchered my daughter and at least a dozen other women between 1999 and 2008 had become incompetent - possibly by reason of physical or mental illness. Why did nobody blow the whistle? Her sister knew the reason - when she was doing her own nursing training she witnessed an anaesthetist treating the body of a patient with total disrespect but when she mentioned this to the theatre sister she was told she should keep her mouth shut if she didn't want to forfeit her career.