Call me old fashioned but....

nanaej Just like to say that I hugely admire self made men/women who start from scratch without any backing, good luck to your son in law and I hope his business flourishes we need many people like him and banks should do far more than they are doing to help small business. Major digression away from VB's skirt apologies.

petallus I think you are right! England is a hugely snobby place and class still dictates so many attitudes. we do not like 'self -made' success unless it upholds at least 'middle class' attitudes/style/values! If a 'working class person makes money and uses the money on things thought to be brash or (I do not like this word!) chavvy they are vilified. If they spend it on things the media approve of they tend to get better press! My DDs OH is a 'self made' man. He works extremely hard, employs a small team of guys with similar working class roots and they all , at the moment, make a good living in the building / renovation business. None of them are academic and that seems to annoy people who have got degrees but do not earn as much!

crimson. I think VB 'being there' for her husband during the turbulent times (his unfaithfulness and fall from grace in the football world) had more to do with 'Brand Beckham' , as they were known at the time, and less to do with family values. I don't think she had any hand in turning him into a sporting icon. The huge PR machine surrounding them would have been responsible for that.

nanaej I've thought that myself. As though they are seen as upstarts going beyond their station (to use an old fashioned term).

It does seem in UK thate are not always pleased when 'ordinary' people make money. The media starts to undermine them and try to find 'sneaky' information about them. I do not recognise the majority of younger celebs (but I do know VB & KP) because I do not read about them or watch them on TV.

I don't think VB is 'common'. I think she's 'Posh'!
(sorry!)

Petallus Stella McCartney graduated from St Martin's School of Art in fashion design and I therefore presume that she has some talent in her chosen field, although no doubt having a famous father was of some help. As far as I am aware, VB has not had any formal training in fashion design. She herself said that she has worn expensive and well cut clothes and has a feel for what looks right and I have no doubt she has some input with ideas, even if some of her dresses look suspiciously like Roland Mouret's. However, having said all that I don't think that makes her a fashion designer any more than selling books written by a ghost writer makes KP an author.

gracesmum a thread can go on until the subject is exhausted, there's one on the go at the moment about a hypothetical bar that's run to page 11. You might not see slebs as role models but then you aren't a young girl, well I presume you're not, hung up on her own body image and trying to aspire to manufactured perfection. The one real talent that both KP and VB both have is the way they micro manage the PR of their own images which they both seem in full control of. Paradoxically, KP whilst pandering to male fantasies with her vast array of false and ever changing chests, is also very much her own boss presiding over her quite diverse empire, so in a way she's achieved an end result in quite a dubious fashion. Dig beneath a seemingly trivial subject such as the cult of celebrity and underneath it you will find a pervading attitude amongst some of today's young that an education is not to be valued in the way looks are, particularly for girls and fame and riches can be achieved with very little talent say via Big Brother House or so called talent contests. It's part and parcel of the world they inhabit.

Because these women are perceived to be 'common'!

Gracesmum I am quite interested in celebrities and always read a bit on VB when it comes up.

I once stooped so low as to read a bit about Katie Price and her handicapped child and it was quite moving.

I don't like the idea that some people (women) are so sub human that they are not even worthy of mention on Gransnet.

As for being role models for young women, why not VB? She has done well for herself through her own efforts rather than through the status and wealth of her family.

I do think where some women are concerned snobbery comes into it.

baNANA on what evidence do you assume that VB is not a talented fashion designer except that you don't like her?

Would you say the same about Stella McCartney who had her famous dad there as a helping hand?

And no-one is trying to say that Katie Price is a successful author in a literary sense. But why have a pop at her as well?

Both VB and KP are regularly sniggered at in the press. It's spiteful and uncalled for and a little bit snobbish (I mean the press not *baNANA of course)

Seems to be a talented fashion designer? Strangely Katie Price seems to be a successful author! Amazing how many talents can be pulled out of the bag when certain individuals turn themselves into celebs.

Well, she seems to be a talented fashion designer, has four beautiful children and a happy marriage to a man who is also gorgeous and talented. I'm always amazed at how lovely and stylish she looks; ok I know she lives in America but I still feel that she represents us on the world stage. I don't regard her as a celeb who's only famous for being famous. I'll never forget that she was there for David Beckham when he was being villified by the press and public in this country, and can't help but feel that it was her influence that has turned him into a sporting icon [well, that and a bit of talent at kicking a football]. I think the time that I really warmed to them was when they were at the Sports Personality of the Year show and David won an award.

We can't just ignore what's going on in the world, gracesmum, and what baNANA says is unfortunately true. Admittedly the thread started off 'having a go' at VB, but I do worry about the role models young girls are exposed to these days and I think the cult of celeb-worship is limiting a lot of their aspirations.

I am frankly surprised thaat this thread has made it to page 2! Most of us sound "agog with indifference" when it comes to "slebs" and none of us see them as role models for girls today so why do we even give them space on our site?

I'm not sure the message of feminism resonates today with young and adolescent girls, I think it's really sad the way some allow themselves to be manipulated by boys and men, for example being pressurised to texting suggestive or even obscene photographs of themselves really sad, so glad I'm not growing up now. Everything today is about creating an image even if you are a complete unknown, so in a roundabout way I'm saying that VB and Katie Price personify the whole big ego thing which seems to drive young people along and underpins the way they feel about themselves.

If only the feminists were as active and influential now! I sometimes wonder whether the subsequent generations will realise how far there is yet to go to achieve the equality we were striving for.

Different eras throw up different attitudes, many celebrities of yesteryear maintained an aura of privacy not every aspect of their life was put out in the public domain. Of course we didn't have social networks then, but I still maintain there are loads of serious actors, e.g. Laura Linney, Emily Watson, Gina McKee to name but three that the public know absolutely nothing about. Kate Bush was supremely talented and only surfaced recently after many years to collect an award. VB and Katie Price allow not only details of their own lives, but their childrens to be put under the spotlight. Real talent doesn't have to posture and pose on a public stage.
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You're right petallus I am with shame. I remember being told off by a friend at that time for doing just that. It was a very good attitude, and I apologise to VB for my earlier comments (though I did show some sympathy).

Back in the 70s/80s we feminists used to think it was bad form to slag off other women. Those were the days!

The boys always appear to be well grounded and a credit to their parents especially the eldest boy. DB always looks as proud as punch when they appear together at sporting events. I suspect Romeo is a bit of a mummy's boy but that's not unusual given that she was outnumbered 3-1 before her daughter arrived.

Their son Romeo is the double of his father there is no chance he could not be mistaken for being DBs son.If being miserable and not seeming to be very pleasent made me a mutli-million £ business then I'm all for it,its all the media interest that gives her the income that she has ammassed over the years.

absent I feel the same way about Katie [poutie] Price.

I don't care about Victoria Beckham, her clothes or, for that matter, her children.

Oops meant to type plane in last post not plan.