Scottish Referendum

Becoming an independent country must be about more serious things than Last Night of the Proms. As I live abroad but get BBC TV, I could watch it but it embarresses me. absentgrana is right. It is nationalistic and appeals to the Brits feeling superior to other nations which history has proved they are not. They were pirates with good ships and what they did which was euphemistically called Empire building but it was piratary and supression.

OK so you can sing your heart out once year if it makes you feel better but it should be seen for what it is.

Wheniwas No reason why you should not think of the proms as British, especially with all the daft nationalistic hoo-hah of the last night of the BBC proms. Nevertheless, the original promenade concerts and the ones later established by Sir Henry Wood (now the BBC proms) were a peculiarly English invention.

Nice to know everybody.

Remember I was only saying what the Scottish audience in Inverness said and spoke of.

absent, the Proms take place in London (capital of Britain as well as of England) and started long after we were all supposed to be British and so at the time (it was, as I said, a long time ago and certainly before the divisive Mrs T got her claws on things) I felt within my rights to think of the Last Night, with Rule Britannia etc, as a British occasion.

POGS, various Tescos that we visited in Scotland had plenty of Jubilee Union Flag stuff, although I don't know how much they sold.

POGS Hundreds of Union Flags here in Central Scotland for the Jubilee and even more (Plus lots of Saltires) to greet the Olympic Torch on its travels. Just goes to prove that you can't trust the London Based Media in their ivory towers to give accurate reports about the rest of the country. If I am heading west I look for recent posts from Soop and Bags to see what they are saying about the weather, if going east I see what Gally and Marelli are reporting. Much more accurate than TV weather reports Perhaps we should make more use of our Gnetwork to check the veracity of surprising news reports from far flung locations.

Lily and *Anno totally agree that is unfair for MPs from S, W & NI to vote on England only matters. SNP MPs leave the chamber and neither debate nor vote on Matters which pertain to England only or England and Wales only. Deciding when to withdraw can be problematic because an ostensibly 'England only' debate, will, if it involves increasing or decreasing budgets, have a proportional effect on the Scottish Budget. The Barnett Formula which governs the block grant allocated to Scotland allows for 'consequentials' which basically means if more/less money is allocated to, say, Education, in England then the same percentage increase/decrease must be added to/deducted from that part of the block grant which is designated for Education in Scotland. The whole thing is a confusing, diabolical mess which came about because Tony Blair, whose Government introduced Devolution, needed the Scottish Labour MPs votes at Westminster in order to maintain a majority especially in the case of England Only legislation.

Pogs Maybe our Tesco have not noticed that. I have not been in there for a while, all might be different.

The strangest thing is that my sister who, though as Scottish as I am, has lived in NZ for many years, and has gone over to the dark side, would support the All Blacks against Scotland. What treachery!!

Yes there is lot to say for having a governing body near to where you live. In Germany it comes from the fact that Germany has been historically so many countries with moving borders. An island has the advantage of remaining the same.
All the same I live in the wealthiest of German states(Lander) and we have to cough up quite a lot to give to the parts of Germany not thriving like my area.
We also have referenda about railway and airport plans and have our own government. It is all not so heated as in Westminster, just endless boring discussions.

I'm sure Tesco just want to be on the winning side but like most other people and organisations they don't know which that is or will be.
The Scots away from home reminded me of my mother who always said of the Irish. They are all in England, singing about Ireland.

Elegran

Just looked up the point I raised about Tesco and the Union Flag.

It was mentioned in the newspapers. The Question Time prog. came from Inverness, One Touch Theatre, Eden Court.

That's right, anno and as you say, a federation might make sense. But it isn't going to happen.

Lily - that's the 'West Lothian question, first posed by Tam Dalyell, the county's MP. As a member of the Scottish diaspora (though I haven't got any further than Cheshire), I haven't 'always' wanted independence, MargaretX, though I am still umbilically attached to the homeland. I would have preferred a federal solution on the lines of Germany, the USA or Spain. This would have given a Westminster government control over foreign affairs and defence; with state and regional governments controlling pretty much everything else. It's never going to happen because no national politician is ever going to bite that bullet. As it is, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland substantially control things like health and education but their MPs still have a say in English health and education. Insane! And that's the West Lothian conundrum.

Absent it seems like a lousy country at times - but let us remember that most of the others are worse! And lets not forget what a good job we did of the Olympics and Paralympics
I am aware that you are planning to go to NZ and although I am a fan, there are a few problems there. Like the fact that the Maori party effectively holds the balance of power. Which is a bit like if the Welsh Nats had the balance of power in the UK
Cheer up absent

There is so much coming and going over the common land border that I don't think changing currency at the border is going to be convenient.

MargaretX I think the Scottish diaspora are particularly attached to Scotland, It comes of being away from their homeland, I suppose.

Our Tescos certainly had the Union Flags in Scotland (only Jacks when on a ship with Jack Tars). Where did you hear that they were not going to have them.

As a newcomer to this discussion I'm amazed at the content of this thread. Its very informative. Living abroad I see the independence of Scotland as something the Scots have always wanted. I have an exptat friend living near me from Edinborough and have been corrected several times when I said England when talking of 'our' homeland.

I seem to remember AS said on Andrew Marr 's Sunday morning programme that he would want to be part of the Euro. I think this is convenient for the Scots as not having the pound will make them feel really seperate from England. You would then have to change money at the border.
Then they would have the benefits of being part of a large group at least until they got sorted. AS also said they would keep allegience to the Queen but only the queen. Not Charles and William etc. Rather like Australia.

Even if 16 and 17 year olds vote and say they will vote for independence, and all the others that intend to take this step, you shouldn't forget that the enormity of the step may be apparent only at the moment when they are alone in the poling booth with the pencil in their hand. I think that many will lose heart at this moment.
If Scotland becomes independent then the England stands to be the loser. With the Welsh and Irish and everyone being 'so proud' being Welsh or Irish, only England is left to be Great. But are we anymore?

We are all run by the London Parliament but there are MPs there representing every country of the UK. Even now, when three have separate parliaments/assemblies. England doesn't. Who is running what?

There were loads of union flags up around where I live, pogs – in Scotland – on houses and shops and cars, etc.

absent

I know. I was obviously trying to say something, maybe in a poor way, that I hope others will understand.

POGS It's not a feeling. The Welsh, Scottish and Irish (as well as the English) are mainly run by Westminster.

I have made my view known, that I am saddened Scotland may choose to leave the union.

I was also shocked that Tesco in Scotland would not sell the Union Jack produce for the Queens Diamond Jubilee. I saw that in the papers and heard it from those on Question Time when it was recorded in Scotland.

I think this sort of thing will inevitably make those outside Scotland wonder if we are all so wrong to have thought for all these years we were 'a family' so to speak.

I do understand how the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish feel they are run by Westminster and don't have a say, I truly do. What they never think of is the English probably have the same feeling. That is the system though and I honestly think it is the safest and most beneficial for all of the countries.

AS is a political beast and if you think in years to come after gaining independance that the political wheel will be any different, then I think that may prove to be a naive one. I hope for all our sakes I am wrong.

Please see www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/

Granny23 Potential Scottish independence affects the rest of the UK too so I do think the rest of us should have a vote.

I am actually very glad that I shall be leaving this lousy country whether it remains the full UK or becomes the Kingdom of a Bit of Britain and a Bit of Ireland.

We should be united in our loathing of Mrs Thatcher; not divided. As an English person I don't feel responsible for anything the awful woman did, and can only apologise for it, even though I didn't vote for her.

Back from shopping and pleased to see such interest in this topic.
Absent Lawyers are still working on it but the conscensus seems to be that if Scotland secedes both Scotland and rump UK will be deemed to be 'successor states' and both would remain in the EU - at least until either country decides to withdraw. However other European Countries e.g. Spain, which have significant nationalist parties within their borders might object to this because it would set a precedent. If Scotland had to reapply then rump UK, as a new country, would also need to reapply. Which reminds me that the rump would need a whole new name as it would no longer comprise a UNITED Kingdom + NI - thinking caps on for that one as E,W&NI does not have a great ring to it.

Do you really think that it is democratic for the rest of the UK to have over 90% of the voting power in a referendum, called by the Scottish Parliament, about Scotland's future. What would be the outcome if a big majority of voters in Scotland voted one way and the RUK outvoted them another way? Would Scots be either booted out of forced to stay in against there democratically expressed will? Surely we ALL want to see the matter resolved democratically without use of force.

Jess We already export Gallons of Scottish Water all over the world in bottles. We certainly have a massive surplus of the stuff - maybe we could export (by Air) Scottish Clouds to drought hit areas.

First Minister Salmond does not want a republic although some Nationalists do. The Queen (Sorry Anno) was not crowned in Scotland after the Westminster Abbey ceremony, there was quite a furore about it because she was unable to accept the Scottish Regalia which was to be presented to her in Edinburgh, because she was dressed in her civvies and carrying a HANDBAG . A bit of the same resentment came out when she attended the [re]opening of the Scottish Parliament following devolution, when she turned up at Holyrood in an actually very lovely, heather coloured dress, coat, and hat, instead of the robes and Scottish Crown which many people had expected for the opening of Parliament.

Another point to ponder - do you realise that North Sea (or Scottish?) oil is the biggest chunk of the assets/surety that enabled Gordon Brown and Alaister Darling to secure enormous international loans? Might that be at the back of DC's mind when he is so keen to keep Scotland in the UK?