Europe

absent, Actually I could not have put that better myself.

I would happily withdraw the word "pig" from my comment, if I could.

Good on you BAnana
Ivanhoe I don't mind political discussion but its best not to insult people with terms like "pig ignorant" if you want your views to be taken seriously. It rather spoils any further rational discussion.

Perhaps omitting the "pig' from ignorance would have been wiser, but it is a sad truth that the majority of the British public have little knowledge and a lot of prejudice about the EU, the euro and the Court of Human Rights. However, ignorance has proved to be no barrier to holding and expressing a strong opinion or to expecting to be allowed a referendum. That, I would add, is a general comment about the great British public; many Gransnetters have expressed a desire to have more information before making up their minds. Whether our beloved politicians will do anything to satisfy this desire is another matter.

Not another wind-up perhaps?

BAnanas, If you dont get me. Fine.

Well said BA

Ivanhoe, I don't really get you. You seem to have come out of nowhere to set up several soap boxes to stand on and then fire off a number of tunnel visioned political rants. Many of us on GN have often had exchanges about how they feel on political related matters but most of the people I have encountered pop up on all sorts of threads and don't spend all their time banging on about our past, we cannot change it. I don't like the way you refer to the pig ignorance of the British on Europe, presumably you don't include yourself among this poor unfortunate group of people. I thought we had gone past lumping any one nationality together and talking about them in a negative way, if it's wrong to talk collectively about other ethnic groups and nationalities in this way surely we shouldn't do it about ourselves. Who are the British anyway, we might as you say be born and bred, we might not be, we might like me have immigrant grandparents and great grandparents. As for going on about treating people like lepers when we had an empire, as I stated in my post we weren't alone in that arrogance and indifference to the people of our colonies. Many other Europeans did the same. I think you will find there are those, not necessarily European that are still doing this. Your reply to my previous post was "I'm British, that's why" that's why, that's why what? You make rather a lot of negative generalisations and assumptions about your fellow British citizen. None of us can change the past, we weren't there, only a small section of our society had any say at all in how the country was run. Most of the citizens at that time had no say in what was going on in say India, they didn't even have the vote until the last part of Britain's presence there anyway. As for Britain being the most decadent country in the western world, what exactly are you basing that fact on. We do have some undesirable excesses, drinking and gambling would be two that spring to mind. Which political party introduced wholesale gambling and 24 hour drinking, yeah that would be Labour. May I say running through everything you consider evil about this country and then attributing it to the Tories is somewhat skewed, especially when you ask someone do they by chance happen to be one. Unless someone has actually stated who they voted for I think it's a rude question it would come under the same category as why haven't you married? why haven't you had children? why are you religious/atheist? gay/straight? how much do you earn? These are all matters that are personal and some may not want to defend.

Given your strong opinions I foind it hard to see you as a leader of apolitical groups!!
Just realised, your last post clearly meant ot be ironic

Commas and dots even although most MPs would induce coma Quite appalling, some people's grammar.

gracesmum, My point is made.

By the way over the past 35 years of political experience, I have been in touch with many MP's from all political parties, and they have written back to me as a leader of former apolitical groups.

Their spelling and grammer has been appauling. You would have had a field day checking each coma and dot.

Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe, I think you'll find the inhabitants of Britain are called Britons BTW
Quote:

"There's a lot of what I as a British citizen born and bred, can only describe as pig ignorance about Europe from the average Britain."

Ivanhoe

I don't mind your question at all. I prefer that to assuming you know what I am like. Quite refreshing to have such an honest question actually.

I am a floating voter but I have had a tendancy to the right for a while. I am hoping for some good debate at the next election, where and when I will decide who to vote for!!!. Not before because of indoctrination.

I hate hypocrisy with all my heart. I dislike partisan politics. I cannot stand 'spin' at any price. I listen to and watch a lot of political programmes to make a judgement and I prefer to watch Andrew Marr and Daily Politics rather than Newsnight, which I find annoyingly biased and having poor presenters. Andrew Neil is my favourite interviewer, he is by far the most knowledgeable of them all and tries his damndest to get an answer without talking down to those he is interviewing.

POGS - hear hear! There is a lot of "pig ignorance" as you say, from people who do not face up to the world we are living in - of whatever political persuasion and when it comes to the politically vocal ones I find myself thinking "what's in it for them?" What is the point of harking back to the British Empire? Thise were nit "good old days" they are history and we need to learn from past mistakes.

BAnanas , Im British that's why.

POGS,

A question if you dont mind me asking. Are you a Conservative, or a Tory supporter ?

Ivanhoe

As a British citizen born and bred I too find a lot of pig ignorance from the average britain. It belongs to those die hard activists from political parties, OF ANY COLOUR, who refuse to accept even their own party made/can make mistakes and also continually harks back decades instead of dealing with todays problems.

Ivanhoe, whilst I agree with your statement that when we had the Empire we behaved in an appalling manner. Nevertheless, we weren't alone in either our less than exemplary behaviour or our arrogance, so why single us out. Most imperialistic nations were disgusting not only in the acquiring of their colonies and their high handed attitude France didn't behave well in Algeria, or Indo China, Spain behaved appallingly towards the indigenous people of the Americas. The Spanish in Argentina managed to completely eliminate pretty much all the native tribes, so the population unlike the other countries in South America is comprised almost entirely of Europeans. The Belgians were barbaric in the Congo, the list goes on and on. Most nations can pull out an abundance of skeletons out of the cupboard. Not forgetting of course Germany in the 20th century, one of the reasons why Greece is less than happy with them they never made reparations for the wholesale murdering and plundering of the Greek assets during their occupation there. My point is that there probably isn't a country on this earth who hasn't at sometime been absolutely vile to their fellow man, or plundered other lands for their assets. Do you think China's presence in Africa is completely altruistic? As for pompous, I can think of several other nations I would attribute that attitude to as well. We are not a utopia, but I think your judgement is harsh and frankly quite selective. No one nation has the monopoly on being all good or all bad.

MargaretX. There's a lot of what I as a British citizen born and bred, can only describe as pig ignorance about Europe from the average Britain.

We had the Empire where we treated the natives of India like lepers.

We British have a wonderfully arrogant history in truth, that we prefer not to think about.

In many ways we are a pompos nation, we are definately largely introverted.

All these things and more have giving us the most decadent Western world nation on this planet next to America, and I have American friends who agree with me.

I am old to know what I write is largely true.

I will also say that the sooner the European leaders kick Britain out of Europe, the better. We will never be fully in with the Euro.

By the way I am pro- European, I believe Britain should be fully in the EU and with the Euro.

We didn't join the EU, we joined the Common Market as nfkd says. We have had NO democratic input into whether we want panEuropean economic, judicial, defence and legislative policies and institutions. A federation is one thing but every time there is a crisis, the solution from Brussels seems to be more central control.

I have always opposed our membership of the EU and eurozone. Our pro-EU politicians have argued that we must be at the heart of the EU but none, including Blair, has made much impact.

The euro was an ill-conceived and badly executed plan by people so impatient to create a full political union that they ignored the economic deficiencies, now apparent but predicted by many.

Greece was admitted to the eurozone for political reasons, despite the economic and fiscal objections. I am not sure why the UK would have had a vote about expanding the eurozone to include Greece or anyone else. If it did, it's another mystery of the workings of the EU. I don't know what Germans feel about the EU but most economists agree that Germany has done very nicely, operating with a fixed exchange rate inside the eurozone and a lower exchange rate outside than it would, had it had an independent currency.

Like many others, I like visiting Europe and I get on well with most Europeans I meet. My concern is the EU. It is bureaucratic, inefficient and, it seems, immune from criticism. It's response to monetary cock-up is to demand greater fiscal control! It was an nice idea but, like Communism in the USSR, it doesn't work to the benefit of those it should.

Late in joining the thread but I have to say baNANA I thought you had read my mind and wrote exactly the words I would have used.

Obviously I agree whole hearted with your take on the subject. The EU is a bloated system which has failed to financially get 'the books balanced' for years. Like the ECB they are building brand new state of the art buildings, trying to get their wages increaed whilst ignoring the fact all the rest of us are in austerity. Shame on them.

An EU proposal for the UK housing market is to add 20% VAT on new builds and this would help those trying to get on the housing ladder how?

Another good post baNANA.
From your last paragraph: and frankly if ever the German people decided they have had enough of subsiding etc. etc.

The German people will not decide on that. They love their leaders too much!
Sorry margaret could not resist it.
I am Dutch by birth.

And there is the proof of what baNANA said .

Anyone who had ever spent a week in Greece with their eyes open could have told them they were not ready to join the EU. Nice little earner for the big accountancy firm that prepared the case though.

Margaretx, I'm not anti German, I like all the ones I have met, quite a few, and I also admire Germany as a nation. The Greeks, have of course been a law unto themselves, quite ridiculous in fact, but I still sympathise in what the ordinary Greeks have been reduced to. All the countries, including the UK, were wrong in being complicit in allowing Greece to join the Euro before they were ready, if indeed they ever would have been. However, I think it's true to say that the Eurozone is pitting individual countries against each other, look how Greece was depicting Germans as Nazis during Angela Merkel's recent visit there. Similarly Greeks and possibly Italians do not like to be viewed by Germans as lazy Southern Europeans and that was the point I was trying to make the Eurozone is not bringing us all together some are reverting to depicting each other as insulting national stereotypes, I think UK's relationship with France has reached an all time low just lately. In the meantime, in the countries who have been hit hard by the austerity measures, extremist political parties are emerging and as they gain momentum they could well affect the stability in those countries. NfkDumpling, I agree with you in that both Greece and Germany are two great countries but possibly they are not compatible in their customs and the way they manage their affairs. Greeks are easy going, but obviously their tax system has been a total disaster. Germans are hard working and efficient, they have benefited in finding markets for their products, but I can see they are losing patience with the countries who operate in what would seem to be a Mickey Mouse way. The Eurozone is a mass of different cultures, customs and attitudes I just wonder how it will become one big homegenous mass when so many countries seemingly unable to agree about so many issues and frankly if ever the German people decided they have had enough of subsidising Southern Europe then there wont be any United States of Europe to speak of.