Europe

Or get out completly ???

Oh yes, Getting out would be nice! But I fear that, like complete Scottish independence, we're in too deep to extricate ourselves completely.

Nfk It's a bit tricky to renegotiate back to something that no longer exists. Given that most British exports go to Europe and the strong commercial links with Commonwealth countries that used to exist have mostly disappeared, I cannot see any advantage in attempting renegotiation or withdrawal.

I live in Germany and in today's paper I read that time is running out for the UK and if they don't get their act together and decide to see their future in the EU then they will be sidelined and then presumably OUT.

There is an old German proverb . Be careful! your wish may come true.

We joined. I think it was a mistake but once we were in then that was it. We need to get on with it and become part of the union properly rather than this bitching, complaining annoyance.

Sticking puppet unelected governments in Greece and Italy is extremely undemocratic. It's all very well Angela Merkel waving her finger at the Greeks for their evasion of taxes but Germany knew that Greece wasn't ready to meet the criteria to join the Eurozone, but they presided over them falsifying their accounts and turned a blind eye to their financial unsuitability so they would have yet another market to shove all their Porsche Cayennes and other stuff to. What is happening in Greece is awful, the poor are practically starving and they now have the rise of the far right. The irony is that a United States of Europe was supposed to bring the nations of Europe together, instead insulting national stereotypes are emerging all round. Then of course there is all the money that has to be wasted on the enormous number of bureaucrats and why do they have to move between two parliaments, Brussels and Strasbourg for heavens sake whilst simultaneously imposing all manner of new green initiatives on the rest of us. Usual disconnect between how the powers that be conduct themselves and how they expect us, the plebs, to behave.

I was happy with the common market we signed up to. A small group of trading nations. But the fear many had that it would escalate into something more has proved correct. I get the feeling that our United Kingdom is fast become a mere state with a decidedly parochial Parliament.

So BaNana feel better now for getting your anti-German feelings off your chest? It was not Germany alone that decided Greece could join. It was a joint decision.The UK and France were in this as well. I think no one knew that not only were the Greeks not paying their taxes, but they didn't have a tax system at all. There are no records of who earns what or who lives where or owns what piece of land. All Germany wants is that Greece starts to get a computerised system together for the collection of taxes.

The situation is such that the German taxpayer who works efficiently, punctually and very hard for his/ her money can't go on subsidising the Greeks without their making an effort.
Bye the way, there are enough Greek billionaires in the world to bale Greece out.

I knew the Greeks don't believe in taxation. And their land inheritance problems are a nightmare. It's always been common knowledge hasn't it? I believe the Italians are quite good at tax evasion too.

I love Germany because in many ways their culture is similar to ours - only far more organised and efficient. I love Greece because it's people are so much more easy going (except in Athens) And the weather is much better. Chalk and cheese. Trading nations yes. Part of the same country, which is where we're heading, no.

Margaretx, I'm not anti German, I like all the ones I have met, quite a few, and I also admire Germany as a nation. The Greeks, have of course been a law unto themselves, quite ridiculous in fact, but I still sympathise in what the ordinary Greeks have been reduced to. All the countries, including the UK, were wrong in being complicit in allowing Greece to join the Euro before they were ready, if indeed they ever would have been. However, I think it's true to say that the Eurozone is pitting individual countries against each other, look how Greece was depicting Germans as Nazis during Angela Merkel's recent visit there. Similarly Greeks and possibly Italians do not like to be viewed by Germans as lazy Southern Europeans and that was the point I was trying to make the Eurozone is not bringing us all together some are reverting to depicting each other as insulting national stereotypes, I think UK's relationship with France has reached an all time low just lately. In the meantime, in the countries who have been hit hard by the austerity measures, extremist political parties are emerging and as they gain momentum they could well affect the stability in those countries. NfkDumpling, I agree with you in that both Greece and Germany are two great countries but possibly they are not compatible in their customs and the way they manage their affairs. Greeks are easy going, but obviously their tax system has been a total disaster. Germans are hard working and efficient, they have benefited in finding markets for their products, but I can see they are losing patience with the countries who operate in what would seem to be a Mickey Mouse way. The Eurozone is a mass of different cultures, customs and attitudes I just wonder how it will become one big homegenous mass when so many countries seemingly unable to agree about so many issues and frankly if ever the German people decided they have had enough of subsidising Southern Europe then there wont be any United States of Europe to speak of.

Anyone who had ever spent a week in Greece with their eyes open could have told them they were not ready to join the EU. Nice little earner for the big accountancy firm that prepared the case though.

Another good post baNANA.
From your last paragraph: and frankly if ever the German people decided they have had enough of subsiding etc. etc.

The German people will not decide on that. They love their leaders too much!
Sorry margaret could not resist it.
I am Dutch by birth.

And there is the proof of what baNANA said .

An EU proposal for the UK housing market is to add 20% VAT on new builds and this would help those trying to get on the housing ladder how?

Late in joining the thread but I have to say baNANA I thought you had read my mind and wrote exactly the words I would have used.

Obviously I agree whole hearted with your take on the subject. The EU is a bloated system which has failed to financially get 'the books balanced' for years. Like the ECB they are building brand new state of the art buildings, trying to get their wages increaed whilst ignoring the fact all the rest of us are in austerity. Shame on them.

I have always opposed our membership of the EU and eurozone. Our pro-EU politicians have argued that we must be at the heart of the EU but none, including Blair, has made much impact.

The euro was an ill-conceived and badly executed plan by people so impatient to create a full political union that they ignored the economic deficiencies, now apparent but predicted by many.

Greece was admitted to the eurozone for political reasons, despite the economic and fiscal objections. I am not sure why the UK would have had a vote about expanding the eurozone to include Greece or anyone else. If it did, it's another mystery of the workings of the EU. I don't know what Germans feel about the EU but most economists agree that Germany has done very nicely, operating with a fixed exchange rate inside the eurozone and a lower exchange rate outside than it would, had it had an independent currency.

Like many others, I like visiting Europe and I get on well with most Europeans I meet. My concern is the EU. It is bureaucratic, inefficient and, it seems, immune from criticism. It's response to monetary cock-up is to demand greater fiscal control! It was an nice idea but, like Communism in the USSR, it doesn't work to the benefit of those it should.

We didn't join the EU, we joined the Common Market as nfkd says. We have had NO democratic input into whether we want panEuropean economic, judicial, defence and legislative policies and institutions. A federation is one thing but every time there is a crisis, the solution from Brussels seems to be more central control.

MargaretX. There's a lot of what I as a British citizen born and bred, can only describe as pig ignorance about Europe from the average Britain.

We had the Empire where we treated the natives of India like lepers.

We British have a wonderfully arrogant history in truth, that we prefer not to think about.

In many ways we are a pompos nation, we are definately largely introverted.

All these things and more have giving us the most decadent Western world nation on this planet next to America, and I have American friends who agree with me.

I am old to know what I write is largely true.

I will also say that the sooner the European leaders kick Britain out of Europe, the better. We will never be fully in with the Euro.

By the way I am pro- European, I believe Britain should be fully in the EU and with the Euro.

Ivanhoe, whilst I agree with your statement that when we had the Empire we behaved in an appalling manner. Nevertheless, we weren't alone in either our less than exemplary behaviour or our arrogance, so why single us out. Most imperialistic nations were disgusting not only in the acquiring of their colonies and their high handed attitude France didn't behave well in Algeria, or Indo China, Spain behaved appallingly towards the indigenous people of the Americas. The Spanish in Argentina managed to completely eliminate pretty much all the native tribes, so the population unlike the other countries in South America is comprised almost entirely of Europeans. The Belgians were barbaric in the Congo, the list goes on and on. Most nations can pull out an abundance of skeletons out of the cupboard. Not forgetting of course Germany in the 20th century, one of the reasons why Greece is less than happy with them they never made reparations for the wholesale murdering and plundering of the Greek assets during their occupation there. My point is that there probably isn't a country on this earth who hasn't at sometime been absolutely vile to their fellow man, or plundered other lands for their assets. Do you think China's presence in Africa is completely altruistic? As for pompous, I can think of several other nations I would attribute that attitude to as well. We are not a utopia, but I think your judgement is harsh and frankly quite selective. No one nation has the monopoly on being all good or all bad.

Ivanhoe

As a British citizen born and bred I too find a lot of pig ignorance from the average britain. It belongs to those die hard activists from political parties, OF ANY COLOUR, who refuse to accept even their own party made/can make mistakes and also continually harks back decades instead of dealing with todays problems.

POGS,

A question if you dont mind me asking. Are you a Conservative, or a Tory supporter ?

BAnanas , Im British that's why.

POGS - hear hear! There is a lot of "pig ignorance" as you say, from people who do not face up to the world we are living in - of whatever political persuasion and when it comes to the politically vocal ones I find myself thinking "what's in it for them?" What is the point of harking back to the British Empire? Thise were nit "good old days" they are history and we need to learn from past mistakes.

Ivanhoe

I don't mind your question at all. I prefer that to assuming you know what I am like. Quite refreshing to have such an honest question actually.

I am a floating voter but I have had a tendancy to the right for a while. I am hoping for some good debate at the next election, where and when I will decide who to vote for!!!. Not before because of indoctrination.

I hate hypocrisy with all my heart. I dislike partisan politics. I cannot stand 'spin' at any price. I listen to and watch a lot of political programmes to make a judgement and I prefer to watch Andrew Marr and Daily Politics rather than Newsnight, which I find annoyingly biased and having poor presenters. Andrew Neil is my favourite interviewer, he is by far the most knowledgeable of them all and tries his damndest to get an answer without talking down to those he is interviewing.