Two children?

Good post, Granjura. I completely agree.

Granjura just read your interesting post about the numerous problems facing an ever burgeoning world population. I can think of several religions that will carry on disregarding all that data and probably denying there are any issues at stake when they tell their followers to just go forth and multiply whatever the costs!

I am fully aware of all the facts about over-population, but I agree with Bags' solution - more education and provision of family planning services - and a change of heart in the Catholic church (but I won't hold my breath on that one).

Yes of course more education, and I believe that has worked in reducing the size of families in India and Sri Lanka. However, increasingly we are seeing the rise of fundamentalism where there are those that seek to deny girls any education whatsoever. As far as the Catholic church is concerned, in the West at any rate, many of it's followers just pay lip service and ignore a lot of what it says about contraception and of course there are priests who have a more progressive attitude towards that. They do unfortunately have too much to say on sex and Aids in Africa most of which is a load of b******s!

We are talking about the UK here, aren't we?

I taught long-term in 4 different State secondary schools in the UK. All had a really well thought-out and executed sex education programme - none had any influence from the Catholic, or indeed any religion. All the girls who got pregnant again and again knew everything there is to know about sex ed and contraception - but they deliberately ignored all the facts- and knew clearly that they were likely to get pregnant. In the case of the girl who had all her babies taken away, she was a bit simple, had had a horrendous life and thought that sex was a way to get affection - and so were the babies. Tragic.

A rare case, though. So what do we do about those who know all the facts, all about what to do not to get pregnant- have no chance of looking after them without state help- but still go ahead, again and again, and expect the State to pay (eg us)? They have the education, and no Priest is stopping them- so what then? If you went to a Catholic school in the 50s then taught in Catholic schools, you may be unaware of the excellent work and sex education that goes on currently in UK schools, and how contraception is available freely to all, with help and support. So why do so many ignore this in the UK? This does not happen in France, or Germany, Or Switzerland (won't talk about Italy and Spain where the CAtholic Church may well still have some influence).

Its no good turning lights off or riding bicycles or having solar panels if you then go and have more than two children. However wonderful they are as human beings, at the end of the day (pun) as far as this planet is concerned they are just another grreat big carbon footprint.

They are made largely of carbon too. Shocking, isn't it?

"Benefits" by Zoe Fairbairns - a novel written in the 80s exploring the consequences of just such legislation.

The cold facts here are obvious, aren't they? There are too many people on this planet, and steps need to be taken to restrict the numbers. But, as with the euthanasia issue, discussions (not just on GN) on population management are fraught with emotions and personal and historical knowledge, and the topic is even more emotive because it is to do with children.

Head and heart, isn't it? I can see the cold facts clearly, but don't have a clue how to deal with it politically,socially or fairly in a democratic society.

When I was in hospital having my son 30years ago I was told that politicians start wars as a way of culling the nation..scary thought..

Contraception does not always work. Some people wish to have children with a new partner after a previous relationship breaks down. I think it is dangerous to make sweeping generalisations about other people's morals.
I am well aware of the sex education given in UK schools - I have had ten grandchilden who have benefited from it. Even in the 1970's, I was responsible for drawing up the syllabus for sex education, which included all the different forms of contraception, in a Catholic high school.
I think to label people 'immoral' without knowing the individual circumstances is offensive. Plenty of our members have more than two children - are they all quite happy to be criticised in this way?

I think immoral is an unfortunate choice of word, but I also think this is an important debate, which will sometimes sit uncomfortably with people's personal choices. I agree with the view that limiting families to two children is one of the most important things we can do to share out the world's resources.

The Total Fertility Rate in the UK is, according to the Office of National Statistics, less than two. It has risen very slightly recently due, it is thought, to immigrant fertility rates, which will begin to fall. The case for improving living conditions and real life social security then causing a fall in the birth rate is proved. It's the only just and proper and moral way to go.

Thank you, Bags - I was beginning to think I was on my own (again)

Are we talking here about limiting families to two children or limiting families to two lots of child benefit?

I suspect it is the latter in which case it is likely that some people will continue to have more than two children but those children will grow up in abject poverty.

My grandmother (b.1895) who grew up in rural Norfolk, used to tell me that farm labourers' families were too poor to feed their (often large) families properly.

When those children reached the age of 12 or so and went to work on the farms, many of them became ill or died because they were not strong enough to withstand hard labour, having been malnourished all their lives.

So, maybe we should consider, if nothing else, the long term effects for the NHS of having a significant portion of our future generations growing up in the kind of poverty which means they are more likely to become ill in adult life.

Of course I agree with Bags and Greatnan that education and improved living conditions are the best way forward.

But could we apply this to people who live here but who have a different culture to our own, maybe with an alternative attitude to the desirability, or not, of having many children?

I think we have to take a long view, Petallus - as more and more young immigrants become integrated into British culture and education, I am sure they will want to limit their families voluntarily. In countries which had no welfare provision for the old, a large family was seen as insurance against a poverty-stricken old age. Boys were preferred because they stayed with their family - I read that bringing up a girl was seen by some fathers as feeding somebody else's cow!

I can't think that there is anybody who disagrees with the fact that education, access to employment and improved living conditions are the best way to persuade people to limit families. I don't think anyone was suggesting compulsory sterilisation, were they? The problem is that education etc takes a long time to work through and the fact remains that some of the most needy folk in societies across the world have children that they struggle to look after.
On the other hand, I know that the economic crisis and the cuts in welfare payments are causing a fall in the birth rate in Spain, so the generation without jobs may also be the generation without children.
None of it is easy, but it is too big a problem to avoid discussion.

I don't want to avoid discussion (do I ever?) I just objected to being told that my daughter was immoral by somebody who knows nothing about her.
I wonder if it applies to the queen? Or only to people lower down the pecking order.

I don't think it was aimed directly at your daughter, Greatnan. It is interesting, though, that we perhaps see issues in a different light because of personal circumstances. Is my view of population control coloured by the fact that everyone in my family has two children? Would it be harder to be objective in other circumstances?
I know that working with the teenage pregnancy unit in my LA made me realise how complex and deep-rooted the issue can be in some families. Despite masses of support, the circumstances for many of the babies were far from ideal.

Following on from Granjura's post, even Catholic schools have to teach sex education and that includes birth control, and I agree with your post Granjura that some young girls know about birth control but nevertheless will knowingly become pregnant. I think there may be several reasons for this, a) They think it will move them into the adult world and somehow validate their lives b) They think a baby will give them unconditional love, which would possibly be lacking in their lives and c) and probably this is the most contentious reason, but I know several girls, that one of my son's went to school with who did this very thing, they knew that it wouldl give them access to a whole load of benefits, so they could set up home, away from their mother and quite often "the stepfather" half siblings and sometimes a whole load of chaos. Another factor that I often think is pertinent, this often happens to girls whose mother did the very same thing and I think in some cases we could well be on the third generation of a self perpetuating cycle. Can it be a coincidence that England and Ireland, who both hand out far more lucrative state aid to single mothers, have the highest rates of teenage mothers? Even it the more traditional Catholic countries Italy and Spain now have some of the lowest birth rates in the Western world, they also have very minimal state aid as far as supporting young single mothers, could there be a correlation here? Their low birth rates across the whole of their societies also demonstrate to me that they are no longer in thrall to the Catholic church which I would see as good thing in that the women in these countries have taken control of their own lives. Cristina Odone, on Question Time a couple of weeks ago said she thought it was ridiculous the way flats would be handed out to young people in this country. She actually said in Italy most young adults would have to live with their parents, and also pointed out that it was common knowledge in Italy that they had to resort to having their sex lives in their cars. I imagine like we all did 30 or 40 years ago when our whole raison d'etre was NOT to get pregnant. What was it we knew then that they don't know now? and yes there are always going to be "the occasional accident" but lets face it there is far more on offer now what with morning after pills and implants than our generation had at their disposal. Possibly it was the fact that you just knew you couldn't go home to your parents and tell them you were up the duff and possibly we also knew there would be no state aid forthcoming that somehow focused the mind. When Jerry Hall was still married to Mick Jagger, he managed to pull yet another "girlfriend and love child" out of the hat who was more or less the same age as their youngest, Jerry was magnanimous enough to allow him to bring that child to her house and let him mix with his half siblings, although she did chide him at the time saying his mode of behaviour "just causes chaos" even with money!

I would add I don't think it is inevitable that birth rates will drop amongst certain sectors of our immigrant population, I think some have a vested interest to have many children to increase their numbers. I'm not sure that their women have enough control over their own lives to decide for themselves how many they would choose to have. However, cutting back child benefit for the first two might have some bearing on the matter.

baNana - I think you have summed up the possible reasons for young girls to have babies very well - thank you.
Since carboncareful knows nothing about my daughter, I would have to be pretty stupid to think that her remark was aimed at her specifically. I simply thought it was wrong to pass such a harsh judgement without knowing all the facts. I await cc's response.

I have five grandchildren and a sixth is not out of the question. However, my daughter is an only child and so is her father. I am one of two but my sister does not have any children. Simple arithmetic does not make a case for morality.