Scout Association News

I am very disappointed in the Scout Association. They already allow an alternative form of the promise for 'other religions' so it is, once again, just non-believers who are excluded. And people call us 'strident'!
What the hell do they think children of atheist/humanist parents are going to do? Infect the other children with scepticism?

The devil is in the detail (from the Guardian):

Jo thought you might be interested in this link from the Guardian: Scouts and guides consider adopting atheist oaths

Associations consult members over possible introduction of non-religious pledge, which would aim to raise diversity

Peter Walker
Tuesday 4 December 2012

The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/04/scouts-guides-consider-atheist-oaths

----

Since 1908, when Robert Baden-Powell laid down the rules for his nascent movement in Scouting for Boys, new Scouts and Guides have made the traditional three-finger salute and promised to not just help others but remain loyal to a deity or higher power. Now, for the first time, the self-professed godless could also be welcome.

The Scout Association has launched a consultation to gauge support among members for an alternate atheist Scout promise, removing the invocation of a deity. At the same time, the Guide Association, the parallel movement which began two years later, is to launch a consultation about its very similar promise, with views sought on all parts of the wording from early January.

The current version of the Scout promise reads: "On my honour, I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God and to the Queen, to help other people and to keep the Scout law."

The reference to God is deemed usable for most religions, although there have been options – such as Allah for Muslims or "my Dharma" for Buddhists – for more than 40 years. Those in other countries promise duty to their own nation or monarch.

But there has been no non-religious equivalent for either Scouts or Guides, meaning young atheists have had to either had to fudge the promise or forgo the woggle.

Secular groups have campaigned for change, highlighting cases such as that of 11-year-old George Pratt, who had been scouting for almost a year but was unable to join when officially invited as he felt unable to make a pledge to God.

The Scout Association, which began admitting girls in 1976, is indicating it would favour a change.

Wayne Bulpitt, its UK chief commissioner, said religion would remain "a key element" even if a new variant of the promise was approved. He added: "However, throughout our 105-year history, we have continued to evolve so that we remain relevant to communities across the UK. "

Julie Bentley, chief executive of the Guide Association, said its consultation would begin on 3 January. "It's something our board has been planning to do for some time," she added.

The news was welcomed by secular campaigners. Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said the change would bring the Scouts "in line with the reality of 21st-century Britain, where more than two thirds of young people say they have no religious belief".

Atheist or not, all new Scouts and Guides must still promise to adhere to their respective laws, including for the former that they "smile and whistle under all difficulties" and – traditionally a tricky one – remain "clean in thought, word and deed".

An alternative association is being set up in the US – the Baden-Powel Service Association. This group does not discriminate against people on the grounds of faith/non-faith or sexual orientation. I suspect that this has also made the fuddy duddies in the Scout Assoc begin to wake up and think about joining the twenty-first century. Plus, I like to think, toerags like me making objections at every opportunity!

So some things that come out of America aren't all bad then.

How do you deal with the promise Bags? I'm asking as a former brownie & guide who recited a (to me) meaningless promise for years. Made me think promises weren't worth much.

butty Yes. A good proportion of the US is very civilised. Probably a similar proportion to here, I'd guess.

baubles, I haven't made a promise. They accepted me because they are desperate for leaders. This is what's driving the change. The Association will die out if they don't adapt and they're realising that on this issue, at last.

As for the cubs I lead, well, I don't think children can make promises so while I encourage all the good values in the "cub scout law", I don't make the promise an issue. Besides, the phrasing is open to interpretation – one is only promising to do one's best to do duty to god and the queen. If one's best doesn't features gods or nationalistic patriotism..... . In short, what the hell IS my duty to the queen (my country)? I'm damned if I know, other than just trying to be a good citizen.

So, in my head, I'm promising to do my best in everything I undertake, and to be kind and helpful. That's all I ask of the kids. It's plenty!

It's interesting that many Scout and Guide groups (or their younger versions) have waiting lists. It's leaders that are in short supply and I can't believe that's solely because the atheists who might otherwise volunteer are put off by the promise! Very few people now have the kind of lives that would allow for the enormous commitment a leader makes in terms of time and skills. And to the ones who do, Respect!

More weasel words just now on the Today programme.
I don't see the problem in framing a promise to do your best to be helpful and kind to other people and to uphold the law. I have strong reservations about Baden Powell and his obsession with 'clean minds'. The emphasis on the evils of masturbation must have caused untold distress to many people.

There was someone on local radio this morning from the Scout Association (I was half asleep so didn't get his name), he said they would be keeping the existing promise but are considering a wording for a promise by atheists.

That kid looks so American!

"clean in thought word and deed" is cruel for adolescents!

Will look in more detail after porridge.

I've never known how you get away with it Bags. But long may you continue to do so.

It's because I'm so bloody brilliant, jings!

Gotta be something like that [puzzled myself!]

Oh wait! They used to call me "bold" at school. That'll be it. [gofrit boldness emoticon]

I was called "inquisitive" at school. Took me some time to understand that it was a polite expression for "nosy-parker"

Actually, you know, there are plenty more like me in the scouts and guides. I think the reason for that is that we feel we can do more good in the movement (with all its warts) than out of it. I think the nobs in charge know that too, which is whynwe haven't been kicked out. Thank goodness, in a way, for clumsy districts where they do kick someone out, or refuse to let them join; that gives it all some publicity. Today's news of a discussion about the possibility of a promise suitable for non-religious people is a start. It's a step in the right direction.

That's good news. My GS is a newly enrolled Beaver and his unit is attached to a church. Even at 7, he has reservations about that. His 10-year-old cousin is planning to join the Guides soon and I wonder what she's going to make of that promise as she makes no bones about being an atheist.

It cannot be that difficult to come up with something more general surely.

Perhaps something about respecting others right to beliefs or to no belief and and making it your duty to promote others freedoms dignities and inherent worthiness, respecting other races etc.

I can't think it through right now. I have to go and do my duty to my stomach before I go out tonight.

Bags

Forgive me when I ask, because I think it would be very good for the Scouts to be inclusive for all children and adaults, but what was the message being sent by those scouts on t.v. today who were wearing scout sweat shirts with wording such as 'I am a muslim, I am a scout'. It gave the impression that the scouts had already embraced the idea.

Was it a sham for the media in your opinion?. I certainly am not asking that question in a sarcastic fashion but I respect your view as you have told us of your connection to the scouts and you are probably the best person to answer.

It seems they will accommodate all sorts of gods, just not no god. I suggest everybody wanting to join embraces Klingon.

Yes, that's it in a nutshell, G. So, in answer to your question, pogs, any god, or multiples thereof, will do. No god is not acceptable because atheists are incarnations of the devil, obviously [sarc]. Or maybe the Scout Association is just disgustingly prejudiced. Sorry if that sounds harsh. It just is. The harshness is not directed at individuals. I've said all this to my District Commissioner and the whole group of leaders, so they all know. I just hope they passed on my views, and that other commissioners passed on the views of their atheist members too.

Just to show how silly it is, I've been running the Cub Pack around here for over four years now. I have a leader's warrant but they won't officially call me the Cub Leader. I'm the Assistant Cub Leader (assisting myself, I suppose). It's really quite insulting if you're an insultable sort of person. Fortunately I'm not; I just think the nobs of the Scout Assoc are a bunch of nincumpoops on this subject. Sad really.

Locally, by the way, I'm known as the Cub Leader. It's the institutuion that's at fault. Most scouty types are great people, whatever their religious views or lack of them, and very accepting of others.

Which is one of the WHOLE POINTS of scouting!