Pope Francis

Phew!! - well I admire him for working so hard.

I have to say that it does reinforce my view that if god exists, he/she/it is working d****d at making him/her/itself totally opaque. It almost made me desire to be an atheist rather than an agnostic!

God as a projection of human fears/desires is a concept that is probably as near as possible to where I stand. The stuff about Freud (with whom I have no truck) was a bit tedious to be honest. He is, like the forerunners of many religions, a flawed product of his time and his society, whose views have done much damage, having been absorbed in an almost religious fashion by the west.

Seeing god as a projection of human hopes etc. does not imply a rejection of god as a concept or of its value to many people.

I think that the problem that many of us have is the taking over of religions by those whose projected hopes/desires are pernicious: seeking of power in all its forms - sexual, financial, psychological. Such people use the framework of religion to reinforce their own personal projection of what god is to clothe themselves in authority of the deity in their pronouncements.

I think we have to look to ourselves - using our intellects and our consciences - to answer the big questions and to lead decent lives.

I'll look out for the bit about social work!!

I agree, phoenix

The man has been in the post for less than a week, but already there are rumblings with regard to the Falkland Islands.

I would humbly suggest that Francis spends time putting his own house in order (RCC) before even thinking about politics, especially when in this instance the people concerned have made their feelings abundantly clear.

A few people have said something along the lines of "of course we know the rules about contraception are ridiculous - but we just ignore them".

I don't understand why people collude in this way. I had an Irish friend at work who bought a flat with her boyfriend, despite the fact that in her community sex before marriage was totally unacceptable. I asked her how she explained the situation to her family, and she said, laughing, that she told them that they each had separate bedrooms. She knew that they knew that this was not the case, but everybody had to maintain this ridiculous charade.

My view is, either accept that the rules are right and obey them, or come out into the open and challenge them.

Thanks toMiceElf for the link and thanks to Greatnan for the compliment. Mishap if family isn't an exact analogy, think of friends or lovers then. And although people do change their religion or denomination, I think many of us would say we don't choose it, it chooses us - even if we are born to it.

My daughter attended NA (Narcotics Anonymous) for a time and found the 'higher power' business very off-putting. She also found that many of the 'recovering' addicts were still using the group as a way of obtaining drugs. I don't know if AA is the same -obviously without the drugs, but I would have thought that being with other addicts is a very bad idea.

*Mishap' some of our claimants when asked if they attend AA say they don't like the religious overtones and so don't go!

Well, thank you Greatnan!

I think if you read the paper that I signposted you may well find that we are not so very far apart.

Whenim and Mishap, you will see that the great profession of social work is spoken of on page 19. I shall be very interested in your response.

I think we 'turned the corner' on our religious discussions when Lilygran and Micelf started posting, with infinite patience and goodwill. I will never believe in any 'higher power' but they have certainly modified my opinion of Christianity.

Mishap Remember George W. and his reformation from alcoholism. He claimed to have spent months studying one of the gospels, but was totally unable to answer a fairly basic Sunday school type question about it.

I have friends who are ex-alcoholics who found help – and, indeed, still sometimes continue to do so – through mutual support groups that don't involve any kind of religious belief. I suspect the groups vary from place to place even if they still work on the shared principle of step-by-step.

I think I had better set by an hour to look at that! - thanks for the post. I will come back on that one.

I have just returned from physio (ouch!) and was listening in the car to a discussion about Alcoholics Anonymous (http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/?pageid=56) - the steps were pretty scarey and wholly theism based. I had not realised this - I thought it was a mutual support group. They really are very US-evangelistic in their approach - extraordinary.

Sorry - slight red herring - but I was quite shocked and disturbed by this - the message is that you can only cease to be alcoholic if you give over your life to a "higher power." Pretty fundamentalist stuff from what I had thought was a secular organisation.

Mishap, and Whenim I will post some more links but in the meantime try this!

Atheism and contemplation

www.ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/40/40.4/40.4.2.pdf

It's a bit dense (and I'm afraid it's written by a J) but anyone who has a smattering of philosophy or theology should find it pretty accessible.

Just to follow up on that a bit. For me prayer is analagous with meditation; the difference being that in meditation one is seeking answers within oneself and with prayer one is looking to an outside force to provide those answers. I guess that is why meditation is primarily a individual activity.

I have always felt that religion is looking for the answers to the big questions outside of the person (through a deity); whereas agnostics in the main feel that they have personal responsibility for seeking those answers through science, and through searching their own consciences about how to behave.

I think it is important that those two approaches run in parallel and in harmony - because essentially they are seeking the same things, but just coming at it from a different angle.

Yes, I too am very puzzled about the need to pray together.

I suppose the analogy with family stands up to some degree, but there is of course the point that we do not choose our family, but we can choose our religion.

The idea that praying together has some increased value to praying alone is interesting - perhaps you could explain the reasons for this assessment please.

Great - thanks! I do feel we are turning a corner with these religious debates.

Whenim and Mishap, thank you for your courteous responses. It seems me to be wholly good to understand the beliefs and philosophies of other people and when that exchange is conducted with respect and a desire to understand that has to be good.

Whenim I note your request for links. I'll try to post some later when I have a little time, and I'm sure Lilygran will do the same, coming from our different but closely related traditions.

Not for me, thanks! X

Lilygran I am happy for you that you have your faith. I am happy for me that I have no need of it.

So was I, when, soop and then I came back in. Never too late.

when Me too.

MiceElf the philosophy you describe is typical of most non-religious people, too. It's just that I/we don't pray to a god to keep me/us on the straight and narrow. The family, extended family, friends, community, and ever-widening groups and organisations to which I feel a sense of belonging all contribute in terms of values and responsibilities, and keep that 'one another' philosophy alive.

I was brought up within the Church of England, and gradually started to question religion as I learned more about science. I was agnostic, then atheist by the time I left my teens.

Lilygran has explained very well some of the reasons why staying is better than leaving. But in addition to that one of the central teachings of Christianity is 'one another'. There are many many parts of scripture where this is enjoined upon us. And, like a family it is better to be together than apart. On our own we cannot share ideas, debate, plan and cooperate in trying to fulfil the gospel imperatives; we need others to knock the nonsense out of us, stop us from being complacent and share and develop ideas. And most importantly we pray together. I realise that as an agnostic this last will not resonate with you, but for those of us with a religious belief, it is extremely important.

.....and to you, too, Lilygran. Your comments crossed with mine. It's good to see the debate taking a constructive turn