Pope Francis

Well, I'm not long back, having been to Mass and then, with the pastoral committee to our local centre for the homeless to cook dinner with them and finding that that there was burst water pipe and all the chaos that ensued.

And I've just looked here and I must say its a teensie weensie bit like being being put against a wall with the might of many of the grans firing against me.

But - there are some very fair questions here and I'll attempt to answer those that I think are posed in good faith.

However, this is not about belief. That can be, and has been, debated elsewhere.

First of all, the church - and I'm saying yet again the church is NOT the clergy or the hierarchy - is run by those who are involved in its life. We have a parish council, seven committees and lots of smaller ad hoc groups. Women and men are equally involved with the leadership. 70% of our Eucharistic ministers are women.

Yes, there are scandals in the RCC. This has been discussed here too. Child abuse and its cover up are perfectly appalling and those involved are guilty of grave sin. But not all Catholics or even all catholic priests ate paedophiles, despite the best endeavours of some sections of the media to persuade that that is the case.

Yes the official teaching on contraception is ridiculous, it is ignored. Not only in the west but world wide too. Adultery and fornication are against the teaching of the church are both seen as much, much more serious. As I have mentioned before I have lived and worked in the subcontinent and in Africa with women and I know of what I speak.

Abortion is another matter. And a huge matter for debate. We all have our views, but it seems to me that the frequent casual destruction of an unborn child is not a good way to live. Of course there are circumstances and reasons when it is the lesser of two evils, but that doesn't make it morally neutral.

Women priests? Well I can't think of a job I would rather not do than that! Even being a social worker, but I'm pretty sure it will happen in time, the RCC does move at a glacially slow pace, but it will happen.

And - why don't liberal Catholics leave? Well, why should we? It's our church too, and we make our voices heard. There are many distinguished women theologians, often within religious orders of women, who are very influential and women are, actually pretty powerful in the church at local and national level. Not as much as would be desirable, but very much there.

This post is too long already but I would like those who have an open mind to read this about my relative. He was the voice of the liberal church and there are many many more like him.

www.guardian.co.uk/news/2004/jun/03/guardianobituaries.religion

About Muslim men: from what I've seen in West Yorkshire, many are like the Catholic laity: they totally ignore what their Imam says and does, if it interferes with their marriage and happiness, but accept that the Imam does things differently. My husband was a bus driver, working with a young married Muslim man, at the time we were a youngish married couple. This man shared the housework, shopping etc, totally respected his wife and generally lived a quiet, Western-type life. When DH asked about the women in black burkhas, his conductor just curled his lip and said: "those are the imam's family - don't take any notice of them"

When I was in the ante-natal ward, pregnant with my first and suffering various complications, I suddenly went into labour while my husband was on shift. After the hospital rang, the Muslim inspector moved heaven and earth to get DH off his bus and on his way to me asap, then ensured he had enough leave to look after me. Talking to the inspector later, DH realised he was just like his conductor in his attitude to women - totally western and caring.

Seems that both Catholics and Muslims, well most of them anyway, put up with bovine excrement from their leaders, quietly cherry-picking what to accept and what to ignore.

We shouldn't - none of us should, because that way nothing changes for the better.

This was 33 years ago though - things might be different now.

Joan I don't think it is fair to equate western with caring. I am certain that the majority of men both western and middle eastern are caring about women. There are a minority of both who are, not. I'm sure they are just as shocked about the way some western men behave towards women as vice versa.
I also think the muslim population in the Uk now contains as many shades of westernised vs non westernised attitudes and behaviour as we could dream up as new generations are born and grow up here.
micelf - nobody ever thought all priests were paedophiles did they?
How are you going to convince us about the contraception thing being ignored in the back streets of third world countries?

Of course not all Muslim men want to control their womenfolk, but my point is that if enough of them said so attitudes could change. I read one report that 25% of young Asian men in the Lancashire area thought that the women/girls who were groomed by the Asian gang were 'asking for it'. Many disappearances of girls must have been noticed by their community, but nothing was said. Many people are so frightened of being called 'racist' that a blind eye has been turned to immense suffering, torture, and murder of women who would not comply with their family's demands.
I don't understand why any religion does not accord women exactly the same rights and respect as men. I know that women were very important in spreading the word about Jesus and for many years afterwards, but their work has been air brushed out of history by the men who dominated the church. I have been told so often that there cannot be women priests because Jesus did not choose any women amongst his disciples - well, not amongst the twelve that we hear most about, but there were many women amongst his followers. Anyway, we are also told whenever it suits a church to change its teaching that we cannot be bound by the mores of an uneducated people, two thousand years ago.
I would not want to belong to any organisation that did not treat me as exactly equal to the male members.
I am more than willing to acknowledge the good works done by many religious organisations, but that does not change my views on the treatment of women.

Greatnan said: Of course not all Muslim men want to control their womenfolk, but my point is that if enough of them said so attitudes could change.

That is the point I was trying to make too.

JessM As for western values - I do believe our core values are caring - even though there are plenty of neanderthals who ignore these values. And at least our religious leaders, for all their faults, do not usually belittle women in their sermons. We've had imams here preaching in their mosques that women 'ask for it' by their western dress. That they are like rotten meat attracting salivating dogs.

Mice, I admire your brave arguments, but I don't agree with some of them – such as the one about ordinary Catholics running the church. No body of people that is run from the bottom up needs the kind of top heavy heirarchy that the RCC has. That's not to say that many parishes don't organise themselves in very community aware ways and so forth, but the rules still comes from the top, and poor, uneducated people still take what the pope says (or what filters down as what he says) as god's law that it is sinful to break. That's quite a weight to have hanging over your conscience. I do know this, having been brought up as a Catholic.

Whether any individual woman personally wants to be a priest is irrelevant to the basic premise that women priests should be allowed, that women should have equal status with men within the church. Not until a woman can be pope (not saying is, but ^can be^) will I be convinced that The Church regards women as equal to men.

Yes well Joan there is a faction that think like that - Some of it comes from a desire to control women and prevent change and I guess some of it comes from a fear of the effect western morals could have on their daughters (and on the honour of their family) If I was a muslim parent living in the UK I would look around and be more than a bit shocked and scared (I'm shocked and scared for my own GD)
If we go back just over 100 years our g grandparents had similar views about the exposure of female flesh.
As to that statistic greatnan - 25% of asian men thought they were asking for it - did they ask white men? It would not surprise me in the least if they got the same answers from young white men living in the same area.

I think the nature of the relationship between the pope and the people is changing and it is quite interesting. The crowds gathered in St Peter's Square went quiet when the name of the new pope was announced as they were not familiar with it but quite soon they were cheering and crying and generally behaving the way that a large gathering of the public reacts to any celebrity. The same celebrity style was apparent when the previous pope visited the UK. Perhaps it all started with the introduction of the pope-mobile. It seems to me that there is still reverence but there's this very superficial feeling too.

You could be right, Jess. I can't remember if it was a general poll or if they asked only Asian men.
I am also shocked by some of the photos of young British people, at home and abroad, drinking themselves into oblivion and lying around in their own vomit, but I don't think that makes it right for Muslim women to be coerced into marriage against their will. It isn't an 'either - or' situation, surely?

Mice - the man in your link sounds to be a good example of how one might wish all priests to be.

I too agree that abortion is not morally neutral, and, as an agnostic, regard it as the taking of a life and a last resort that should be used wisely and thoughtfully.

Thank you fro trying to answer some of the questions.

I suppose I am interested in what keeps you within the church, when you are motivated to see some changes - and wish they would be speedier. Is it not possible to hold a belief and act it out in one's life, but steer clear of the churches with all their flaws: hierarchies, male domination, unrealistic edicts, aspects that you cannot subscribe to etc.? I am presuming that what draws people to acting out their faith within a church context is either up-bringing or the sense of community that they provide.

I guess that if I were a believer I would prefer to distance myself from such flawed institutions and get on with loving one's neighbour and worshipping the god that one believes in.

Mishap I can't speak for MiceElf or other Christians who have posted here but I think it might help if when you are thinking about the/a church you think also about a family. Individuals do break all ties with family or with family members but most of us try to get along with the rest of the family members and accept that none of us is perfect and that people make bad decisions and choose to do the wrong thing. That doesn't mean you condone criminal behaviour or that you should keep your mouth shut. Community is a very important part of Christianity and although some individuals have chosen to live apart from the rest of us, most admit the need of companionship and collective support. I can echo Mice when she says the church is not the buildings or the hierarchy but all the people. Mice, thank you for posting that heartening link.

MiceElf great to see your comments, which don't come across as defensive, and give some insight into why catholic women do stay within their church. Thanks for the link - I was thinking yesterday that more links to information and articles about that aspect of religion ie dissent and movements for change, would quell those constant queries about why catholics put up with oppressive, abusive amd mysoginistic treatment within their church. I would appreciate seeing more.

I can understand catholics who are ashamed of the behaviour of certain individuals and groups with their church and its hierarchy not wanting to answer to such behaviour, especially when it could give oxygen to the criticism being piled on top. It must get quite wearing. However, most reasonable people can cut through the sensationalism of distorted media stories and amplified appraisals of what priests are like (it's estimated that 4% have perpetrated child abuse, which is lower than estimates for the general male population). But also, the emerging accounts of cover-ups and corruption do need to be flushed out, and the general population don't see ordinary catholics rising up and coming to the fore in demanding change and the truth. Perhaps that's the essence of catholicism - obedience, guilt about not appearing completely and unquestioningly faithful. I wonder if pope Francis is open to this shift.

If you, or anyone else, can point us to those protesters who are questioning and challenging, the continual debates that are said to be rather one-sided on here would have more balance. Thanks again

.....and to you, too, Lilygran. Your comments crossed with mine. It's good to see the debate taking a constructive turn

Lilygran has explained very well some of the reasons why staying is better than leaving. But in addition to that one of the central teachings of Christianity is 'one another'. There are many many parts of scripture where this is enjoined upon us. And, like a family it is better to be together than apart. On our own we cannot share ideas, debate, plan and cooperate in trying to fulfil the gospel imperatives; we need others to knock the nonsense out of us, stop us from being complacent and share and develop ideas. And most importantly we pray together. I realise that as an agnostic this last will not resonate with you, but for those of us with a religious belief, it is extremely important.

MiceElf the philosophy you describe is typical of most non-religious people, too. It's just that I/we don't pray to a god to keep me/us on the straight and narrow. The family, extended family, friends, community, and ever-widening groups and organisations to which I feel a sense of belonging all contribute in terms of values and responsibilities, and keep that 'one another' philosophy alive.

I was brought up within the Church of England, and gradually started to question religion as I learned more about science. I was agnostic, then atheist by the time I left my teens.

when Me too.

So was I, when, soop and then I came back in. Never too late.

Lilygran I am happy for you that you have your faith. I am happy for me that I have no need of it.

Not for me, thanks! X

Whenim and Mishap, thank you for your courteous responses. It seems me to be wholly good to understand the beliefs and philosophies of other people and when that exchange is conducted with respect and a desire to understand that has to be good.

Whenim I note your request for links. I'll try to post some later when I have a little time, and I'm sure Lilygran will do the same, coming from our different but closely related traditions.

Great - thanks! I do feel we are turning a corner with these religious debates.

I suppose the analogy with family stands up to some degree, but there is of course the point that we do not choose our family, but we can choose our religion.

The idea that praying together has some increased value to praying alone is interesting - perhaps you could explain the reasons for this assessment please.

Yes, I too am very puzzled about the need to pray together.

Just to follow up on that a bit. For me prayer is analagous with meditation; the difference being that in meditation one is seeking answers within oneself and with prayer one is looking to an outside force to provide those answers. I guess that is why meditation is primarily a individual activity.

I have always felt that religion is looking for the answers to the big questions outside of the person (through a deity); whereas agnostics in the main feel that they have personal responsibility for seeking those answers through science, and through searching their own consciences about how to behave.

I think it is important that those two approaches run in parallel and in harmony - because essentially they are seeking the same things, but just coming at it from a different angle.

Mishap, and Whenim I will post some more links but in the meantime try this!

Atheism and contemplation

www.ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pdf/40/40.4/40.4.2.pdf

It's a bit dense (and I'm afraid it's written by a J) but anyone who has a smattering of philosophy or theology should find it pretty accessible.