Pope Francis

I think I had better set by an hour to look at that! - thanks for the post. I will come back on that one.

I have just returned from physio (ouch!) and was listening in the car to a discussion about Alcoholics Anonymous (http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/?pageid=56) - the steps were pretty scarey and wholly theism based. I had not realised this - I thought it was a mutual support group. They really are very US-evangelistic in their approach - extraordinary.

Sorry - slight red herring - but I was quite shocked and disturbed by this - the message is that you can only cease to be alcoholic if you give over your life to a "higher power." Pretty fundamentalist stuff from what I had thought was a secular organisation.

Mishap Remember George W. and his reformation from alcoholism. He claimed to have spent months studying one of the gospels, but was totally unable to answer a fairly basic Sunday school type question about it.

I have friends who are ex-alcoholics who found help – and, indeed, still sometimes continue to do so – through mutual support groups that don't involve any kind of religious belief. I suspect the groups vary from place to place even if they still work on the shared principle of step-by-step.

I think we 'turned the corner' on our religious discussions when Lilygran and Micelf started posting, with infinite patience and goodwill. I will never believe in any 'higher power' but they have certainly modified my opinion of Christianity.

Well, thank you Greatnan!

I think if you read the paper that I signposted you may well find that we are not so very far apart.

Whenim and Mishap, you will see that the great profession of social work is spoken of on page 19. I shall be very interested in your response.

*Mishap' some of our claimants when asked if they attend AA say they don't like the religious overtones and so don't go!

My daughter attended NA (Narcotics Anonymous) for a time and found the 'higher power' business very off-putting. She also found that many of the 'recovering' addicts were still using the group as a way of obtaining drugs. I don't know if AA is the same -obviously without the drugs, but I would have thought that being with other addicts is a very bad idea.

Thanks toMiceElf for the link and thanks to Greatnan for the compliment. Mishap if family isn't an exact analogy, think of friends or lovers then. And although people do change their religion or denomination, I think many of us would say we don't choose it, it chooses us - even if we are born to it.

A few people have said something along the lines of "of course we know the rules about contraception are ridiculous - but we just ignore them".

I don't understand why people collude in this way. I had an Irish friend at work who bought a flat with her boyfriend, despite the fact that in her community sex before marriage was totally unacceptable. I asked her how she explained the situation to her family, and she said, laughing, that she told them that they each had separate bedrooms. She knew that they knew that this was not the case, but everybody had to maintain this ridiculous charade.

My view is, either accept that the rules are right and obey them, or come out into the open and challenge them.

The man has been in the post for less than a week, but already there are rumblings with regard to the Falkland Islands.

I would humbly suggest that Francis spends time putting his own house in order (RCC) before even thinking about politics, especially when in this instance the people concerned have made their feelings abundantly clear.

I agree, phoenix

I'll look out for the bit about social work!!

Phew!! - well I admire him for working so hard.

I have to say that it does reinforce my view that if god exists, he/she/it is working d****d at making him/her/itself totally opaque. It almost made me desire to be an atheist rather than an agnostic!

God as a projection of human fears/desires is a concept that is probably as near as possible to where I stand. The stuff about Freud (with whom I have no truck) was a bit tedious to be honest. He is, like the forerunners of many religions, a flawed product of his time and his society, whose views have done much damage, having been absorbed in an almost religious fashion by the west.

Seeing god as a projection of human hopes etc. does not imply a rejection of god as a concept or of its value to many people.

I think that the problem that many of us have is the taking over of religions by those whose projected hopes/desires are pernicious: seeking of power in all its forms - sexual, financial, psychological. Such people use the framework of religion to reinforce their own personal projection of what god is to clothe themselves in authority of the deity in their pronouncements.

I think we have to look to ourselves - using our intellects and our consciences - to answer the big questions and to lead decent lives.

Article in New York Times does not make the Catholic clergy in Argentina during the military dictatorship look good. The new pope may have some difficult questiions to answers about that time. As someone else has said of the conclave: "They've picked a winner". Expect more of the same old...

He's not going to do much for 50% of the human race is he? May be next time round.....

....as long as he doesn't start interfering with the Falklands issue.

I don't care who owns the Falkland Islands. I never thought they were worth all those young lives. But still, they did get Thatcher some excellent PR.

Oil exploration in the surrounding area Greatnan makes the Falklands/Malvinas of great interest to the governments of the UK and Argentina. Also, in the case of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, it distracts people from some serious problems that are troubling her government.

The Falklands conflict (apparently it wasn't a war) got Mrs T re-elected. I rather missed the whole thing as I was busy being self-obsessed because I was pregnant at the time.

Ganja and since Mrs T has come up, it doesn't necessarily follow that a male pontiff won't do much for women. Remember how much Mrs T did for us?

Irrespective of whether the new pope should have made a statement re the Falklands, I agree with Greatnan - I don't think it was worth all those people on both sides being killed, maimed or traumatised for life.

People will no doubt cite the rights of the Falklanders and the recent vote in which 99% of them voted to stay as part of the UK.

If we were consistent in protecting the rights of people, we would not have allowed the removal, at the US's request, of around 2,000 inhabitants of Diego Garcia in the early 70's. The island was commandeered for US military purposes - the islanders were given no say at all in the matter and were shipped off to Mauritius. They were told that they could return at some point, but a Marine Protected Area was then established, which included Diego Garcia, and they have been told they can never return.

If Britain were to be consistent in its care for human rights, it would not be doing business with the dreadful Saudi regime. It seems the profit motive dictates the conscience of the British government. Blair did well out of it.
I am hoping Pope Francis will try to further the well-being of women throughout the world, but he is already an old man and I am not sure he will be able to take on the entrenched 'men in frocks' who seem to rule the Vatican from behind the scenes. Still, I am willing to give him a chance.

He's so old though- how can he make a real difference to anything? He looks exhausted already. Sorry - that is a very ageist remark! - bit brave to put that on Gransnet!!!!

But you really need someone young to take on the establishment - full of fire and reforming zeal and energy.

I wonder if he knows what is wanted of him by the grass roots.

Well mishap youth is not always best experience can bring wisdom!

Greatnan perceptive article by Yasmin Alibhai Brown about that very subject. Worth reading - she's a brave columnist.

She is indeed.

Yes, she is often on The Wright Show and whilst I don't always agree with her I do admire her outspoken views.