Pope Francis

*celebran" - No offence taken.

I referred to the Catholic church's wealth because it was the Catholic church that was being discussed. My comments apply equally to CofE and any other relatively wealthy religion.

By granting abortions on serious medical grounds, the church is already accepting that the life of the mother takes priority over that of an unborn child. As for a pregnancy resulting from rape, is it that that unborn child is less precious? Or is it that it is accepted that the feelings, and mental/physical health of the mother should take precedence?

I don't condone women having multiple abortions, but neither do I condemn them. I feel women who do this are probably very immature and ill-educated and/or emotionally damaged.

Joan that made me smile!

It would be really good if he could use the common sense he obviously seems to be blessed with to persuade the Catholic Church to allow the use of condoms not just to help prevent unwanted babies but mainly to help prevent women and children in Africa being infected with aids through no fault of their own.

I know most Catholics ignore the church hierarchy's stance against contraception. I certainly did, back in the days when I was still catholic and still fertile. My local priest told me it was up to the individual woman and her conscience, and if more children would be bad for her family and herself, then she should do what she has to do. He said it was nothing to do with the church or anyone else. I didn't need his OK, I would have continued with the pill anyway, but it was nice to hear.

One day I was at our catholic school Ladies' Auxilliary meeting. I was treasurer, and I told the others, about 20 of them, that I had to give my report and leave, 'cos I'd forgotten to take my pill and had left them at home, and I only had another hour before it was too late. 20 hands went into 20 handbags, and they all asked 'what brand do you take - have one of mine'.

These were all actively catholic women.

(That priest later got promoted to bishop, then chucked out for his liberal views)

Jess, I've just read your post which crossed with mine. I agree, a new broom is needed, and that is why I am cautiously optimistic.

As I said, we'll wait and see.

And in the meantime, we bog standard Catholics will continue to pray, study and do our best to live our lives in the footsteps of Jesus.

Indeed , Mishap. 'By their works ye shall know them', that is a just observation. And I was not referring to you. But there are some on this forum who do detest the RCC in everything it does.

As I said, so be it.

Jess M. You are correct. The Vatican's campaign against contraception is ridiculous and the con - evos in the Bush admin were equally wrong in my view.

But, I repeat, the Vatican is NOT the church.

And, as I'm sure you know, it's not a prohibition of contraception that prevents men from using condoms. They are prohibited from adultery and fornication which are a far, far greater lapse against faithful loving relationships. But does that stop them? No, of course it doesn't. The church advocates an ideal of faithfulness and respect. Sadly, many fall short of that. But compassion and understanding should be paramount. I'm not saying that is always the case, but the ideal is there as something to aim for.

And, if anyone is naive enough to think that that ordinary Catholics are 'under the thumb' of the priest, ( if you can find one closer than a hundred miles away in the bush) they have clearly never lived and worked in the Third World as I have, both in the sub continent and in Africa. Sadly, what happens there is that for the most part, men have the upper hand, and women have little or no power. Educate and empower women, and the world changes.

I think there are some people with a visceral detestation of the RCC - those whose lives as children were made a misery by nuns or other representatives of the RCC. I think the rest of us maybe think that the many good people who are catholics deserve a much, much better deal from the RCC hierarchy.
it will be interesting indeed to see if the new pope puts his new house in order - it certainly is in need of a new broom after the broken one who was eventually prevailed upon to retire. Who by is an interesting question because there were an awful lot of people with a vested interest in the status quo.

No "visceral detestation" here MicElf - I think religions should be judged for both the good they do and the bad. Adherents of a particular religion should not expect otherwise.

Celeb
You seem to now be blaming the poor for not using 'contraception when given it'.
Are you denying that the vatican has led a consistent campaign against condom use despite it being the only defence that many people have against AIDS?
Are you denying that extreme pressure was successfully put on the Bush administration by anti abortion christians not to give aid money to charities that gave contraceptive advice?
Are you perhaps in denial about the fact that these policies probably force millions of women into the position where they have no alternative but to have an abortion?

There are a number of facile, cliched comments here which have all been well rehearsed on many a thread previously. It seems to me that whoever was elected, it would have been immaterial to those who have a profound and visceral detestestation of the RCC.

Those people are not going to change their stance, or be persuaded that the RCC has any good in it, or that it is anything other than a malign influence in the world.

So be it.

But, the church is not the Vatican. It is not the pope. It is not the clergy. It is the the millions of Catholics who try, as best they can, to follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Many fail to live up to those high standards, but, in our different ways, we all try.

As for Francis, amongst liberal Catholics (and we are just as many and as important in the eyes of God, as any other catholic of whatever position) we are agreed that we are fairly positive. The option for the poor, is the great cry of Liberation Theology, and this seems to be foremost in the mind of the new pope.

We shall wait and see.

Mishap sadly the statistics say differently by so many repeat abortions from same girls.

Girls at uni with my daughter had abortions for purely convenience sake.

I am sure most women do find it traumatic also is horrid decision to have to take.

No one wants go back to back street abortions but I feel they should no be so freely available.

Sadly a lot of these people you mention in poverty areas do not use contraception when given it.

It is a huge complex issue.

Having worked in maternity care and assessed women under the "social clause" of the Termination of Pregnancy Act, I do think celebgran that very few women treat abortion as lightly as you fear - they really are in the minority.

I think that most women do stop to think what abortion really is; and it is my opinion that very few women get away without longterm psychological effects. I met so many with problems many years later, mourning a lost baby.

"As for contraception well very few Catholics don't practice that." I think you are describing catholics in the west. The vast majority of catholics live in under-developed countries where education is poor and they are uder the thumb of their priests.

Jess m you need to think that over a thousand healthy foetus are aborted daily and mainly for convenience did you read about the girl who had 5 abortions and she was only 19!

If there are medical reasons is different matter but it is direly misused.

I think of a line from poem written the year abortion was legalised
"We are even prepared to do murder to bring back a smile to her face"

Hardly anyone stops to think of it as what it really is.

Yes I did realise what you meant eloethan I guess we have agree to differ as I could never condone aborting healthy foetus unless there were medical reasons or it was a result of rape attack.

There are some girls who have repeated abortions.

As for contraception well very few Catholics don't practice that.

Church of England have vast wealth too and you will find cathod does tremendous amount for poverty areas all over the world.

Good to have discussion no intention to offend you!

sussexpoet is it really necessary to be downright insulting about other people's religion?

The one main tenet of Christianity is LOVE. Bear that in mind when you feel like knocking it.

sussexpoet #andmuchheadnodding

Another old man in a frock, elected by other old men in frocks to be God's mouthpiece: how can people be taken in by this balderdash? (I wanted to use a much ruder word beginning with B, but it might offend some of my fellow grans)
If I were god (which seems unlikely in the near future as I'm a jewish atheist), I'd want to go away and lie down somewhere quiet until the human race had evolved for another few million years!

celebgran I was actually mainly referring to contraception and sex education.

So far as abortion is concerned, my view is it's the mother, not the Catholic church, that has to give birth to the baby, and it is quite often she who is left to take care of the baby - so I think it should be the mother's decision as to whether she is able to go ahead with a pregnancy.

There are children all round the world living in dire poverty, a significant proportion of whom don't even reach adulthood. Why isn't the Catholic church using its vast wealth to help these children that already exist (and who quite often exist because of the church's policy on contraception).

celebgran - maybe, don't you think, there would be fewer women in need of abortions if the CC did not consistently resist the use of condoms and other forms of contraception? Nobody likes the idea of abortions and I certainly think your remark was more than a little out of order. But women are exploited by men and it seems that in many countries another bunch of men are colluding in this by blocking the distribution of contraception.
Did you read the tragic article about young girls in SA being seduced, exploited infected and impregnated by older men? Who could have the temerity to stand up and say that they should be denied an abortion?
Rich catholics ignore the teaching on contraception (and divorce) quite happily. The poor do not.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21783076

does seem one or two of them are NOT THAT CELIBATE.

celebgran when most of us talk about control over our bodies, we mean controlling our fertility through contraception.

Abortion is another issue all together. It should be legal, because when it is not, women end up being harmed by either having babies they cannot cope with, or by having illegal terminations which often damage their bodies.

I get very cross with the catholic authorities for opposing contraception. Opposing abortion I understand - but it makes no sense when you also oppose contraception. What is wrong with those old men in charge! Do they think everyone should be celibate like them?

Utterly ridiculous.

I presume it's Francis xavier rather than Assisi?

Eloethan surely you not in favour of the hundreds of abortioted healthy foetus daily? If that is women having control over their bodies count me out.

Mishap exactly - what's the point of talking about poverty and injustice when at the same time you prevent women from having control over their own bodies and the size of their families.

It's just more of the same.

My lovely No.2 son said:
If he's going to choose a girls name(sic), it should be Evita!