Working Class whites need citizenship ceremonies

Since when was Frank Field a socialist?

It sounds divisive to me..but FF usually speaks with thought so surprised at this suggestion!

I do believe that there has been significant oversight of the maintenance of traditional British customs and values. But when we used to have a celebration for St George's Day at school those who might easily have fallen into a 'WWC' category were not interested in the country dancing, traditional songs or food!! They did not like the fact that St George was not in fact English, nor comfortable with the fact that legend said he went around the world helping anyone who needed his aid to overcome evil even if they were different to him!

Traditional life for the WWC was lost when technology took over their work, factories /mines /shipyards closed and towns & commnities crumbled and with it esteem and pride. Same as in the industrial revolution wiping out agricultural workers jobs by the 1000s.

Poor strategic planning to put other work opportunities in place of the closures has created this situation along with the willingness to make profit by employing cheap labour which is often found in the poorest communities ie immigrant communities. instead of blaming the employer a 'kick the cat' mentality has developed and immigrants are blamed.

Yeah right Greatnan. That's likely!

There's is possibly a section of the indigenous population who have no idea how our country has been shaped through history and how key events such as the signing of the Magna Carta, Civil War and the Suffragette movement played a part in shifting the balance of power in pushing us along the road to eventual democracy. I haven't read what Frank Field has in mind, what I do know is that my older son was a very "switched off" pupil at school seeing it as a place to meet up with his mates and generally fool around. Because he feels frustrated at times with a section of the demographic he mixes with and their fixation with Facebook/celebrity driven culture he now seeks us out to have conversations about politics, money, how tax is spent, history, religion, current affairs etc. He admits there are some he is acquainted with who whilst knowing everything there is to know about the "idiots in Towie" his words, but have no idea who the leaders of our major political parties are, let alone who the PM is.

My GD, when the opportunity came, in 2010, to cast her first ever vote, tried very hard to persuade her friends to do likewise, quoting the sacrifices made by the suffragettes. Most of them hadn't a clue what she was talking about, not did they care. And these are not WWC lads, but daughters of professional/managerial parents, residents of an affluent 'leafy suburb'. Children just do not learn what made our democracy and why it is important to safeguard it.

Our family have always been politically active. Not ever joined a political party but took local action, joined national protests ,lobbied etc etc, so our kids have followed suit. But they too have friends who never engage in active politics or democracy.

What Frank Field said is too long to quote here but it's in the Independent - online for those who only read online. He wasn't talking about classes or compulsion, rather inspiring and making the white working class that he knew of old and represented, feel a part of the country. There is a large part of society that does feel alienated, that turns to more radical political parties. He is trying to suggest ways of re-engaging these people.

BAnanas yes, agree with your points. I do think where you live has a direct bearing on how you see FF's views.

I'm beginning to think nanaej 's way of being politically active - getting involved in specific issues and protests, etc. - might be an alternative to voting. I have never missed a vote but feel so disenchanted with our current career politicians that I'm not sure who I can vote for in the next election.

I can quite see why people are becoming apathetic and I don't think putting on nationalistic-type events is going to rectify that.

Nor me! I don't like any of them.

Voting gives you a right to complain about the government. If you do not take part, what right have you to criticise the government that those who did participate choose? DH always says that there may be no one you want to vote for, but there is always someone you can vote against.

Even when I was totally opposed to the government plans to replace police committees with police commissioners I went to the polls and spoiled my ballot paper by writing comments asserting my objection to the policy on it.

There is much discussion about what children should be taught in history. Surely the history of our democracy and how we achieved our freedom to vote should be included, from Magna Carta to Women's suffrage.

FlicketyB Yes, I agree one should "turn up" even if it's only spoil the ballot paper.

I don't see how not voting takes away your right to complain; that seems a very simple-minded equation. You might just as well say not paying tax (legally) takes away your right to complain.

Don't spoil the ballot paper! #justdaft

nanaej. I too belonged to a political aware family. I was a local councillor for 4 years. My daughters are also politically aware though not to a great depth. My elder daughter lives in Europe and therefore has different views regarding the EU.

Isn't just suggesting lessons for the WWC rather 'racist'.

janthea The suggestion is ceremonies rather than classes. It could be seen as racist; it's certainly patronising in the extreme.

Spoiling one's ballot is not just daft. It is an opportunity to assert one's views when they are not otherwise represented.

I was utterly opposed to the government's policy or replacing the previous arrangements with police commissioners. The only way I could make this clear was to go to the poll, get my ballot paper and instead of voting for any of the candidates, none of whom I wanted, I wrote clearly that I was opposed to the replacement of the existing committees who ran the police by police commissioners as I considered the old system more democratic.

That seems to me a perfectly acceptable way of supporting the democratic system, by voting but in a situation where I was opposed to the change the ballot would introduce to express this opposition on my ballot form.

I also think that those who fail or actively connive to avoid paying taxes lose their right to complain. Why should they want to complain about something they haven't paid for?

Flickety, if you think anyone takes any notice of what people say on spoiled papers, you are labouring under an illusion. I've been a scrutineer and all we did was look at the spoiled papers and confirm that they were spoiled. Some of them contained obscene remarks. Others may have given cogent reasons for not voting, but no-one would remember those the next day.

I have often thought there should be a space on the ballot paper headed"None of the above." Then you would have a chance to register your dissatisfaction with the choice (devil and deep blue sea springs to mind) while still still doing your duty as a citizen. If the "None of the above" box got more than 50% of the vote there should be a second ballot, where the existing candidates HAD to be replaced. Can't be worse than proportional representation.

I fail to see how a citizenship ceremony would make anyone feel more engaged and what's more is there a point in it?

If you are born and bred in the UK then you are a UK citizen surely and no holding your hands up or swearing an oath of allegiance will change that. I think a lot of the reasons for people feeling disengaged from society is because they feel that nothing they do or say will make any difference .Many of the political parties are so close they are virtually touching and many people feel that they no longer have a voice.

They are even closer today - have you seen the Labour Party's proposals to make benefits be tied to contributions? Pandering to what they see as the views of the masses. How can somebody who has been unemployed/disabled have made contributions?

It does not surprise me in the slightest Greatnan . What do the expect to do with those of us who may not have made full contributions for whatever reason (not laziness).

When I was younger I was a keen labour supporter and was a fully paid up member for around 15 years. It eventually struck me that everyone (from grass roots up over) was out for what they could get out of it and spent their time voting each other onto various committees (you vote for me and I will vote for you) they would attend the opening of an envelope if there was free food and drink on the go. I started to think that I didn't want part of it any more.

I imagine it is much the same in all parties.

Gillybob, I agree with you completely. I was euphoric in 1997 , like many Labour supporters, and how wrong we were. There are some very good and genuine MPs who work hard for their constituents and are true to their beliefs, and it must be sickening for them to have been allied to the arch war-monger and Bush poodle. I have to smile when I am accused of being a loonie leftie - I have no more time for the professional politicians in the Labour Party than for those in the other parties.
I suppose the answer would be to work from the inside and try to change things, but that would be difficult from here.

FlicketyB When I posted about how silly it would be to suggest that not paying tax would be losing your vote to comment, I did insert the word legally – meaning people not in paid employment. Of course, everybody pays tax in some ways – from VAT to stamp duty and from petrol duty to council tax.

right, not vote to comment.

Surely left-wing merely indicates someone with an outlook or specific position that supports social equality - it doesn't necessarily mean a labour voter!