Appalling News

I have a good friend who flinches when she hears the words 'Fundamenalist Muslim' and 'Islamist' because she grew up in a fairly liberal Muslim household where these words were used to describe members of her family who were keen to get the men and boys to the Mosque very week, instead of playing sports and hanging out with friends.

I prefer to refer to these extremists as 'Islamists'. Theirs is a political brand of Islam, aimed at world domination by any means

When I like that point about 'should white religious groups take to the streets.....?' I hadn't considered that and it's made me sit up and think

But the point for many Muslims, Bags is that the terms 'jihad' and 'jihadist behaviour' are meaningless and irrelevant to them, in the same way that 'an eye for an eye' means nothing to most Christians. For them to say 'of course we reject such a term' seems to be not good enough for many people who are suspicious about the word 'jihad.'

From their perspective, they could be angrily demanding that white religious people get their house in order regarding the high proportion of white youths who commit offences, including violent acts against them and their property (50% of 18 to 24 year old white youths have criminal convictions). Attacks on Muslims have escalated in the last few days. Should white religious groups take to the streets to proclaim 'not in my name' as we are asking of Muslims?

Both Muslims and Christians, as well as secular groups, make efforts to divert their youths from committing crimes. They would all claim the higher moral ground about the efforts their representatives make to create responsible attitudes in their youths.

The average Muslim man in the street is as perplexed and rejecting of jihad-talk as the average Christian man is of white thugs who commit racist acts, make threats, and cause criminal damage to the cars and property of Asian people.

Maybe we need to stop talking about "the muslim community" and talk about decent British people instead.

I really dislike the tendency to talk about this, that and the other "community". It reflects a very lazy way of thinking about people.

I believe the general population of Muslims are coming out against the extremists, in Bristol a little time ago a potential suicide bomber was reported to the police by his local community (I think it was the Imam who reported him), he was arrested and is now in prison. I think you will find this is happening in many places.

If I heard someone from my church say they wanted to attack Muslims I would report them to the police, so it is the same with the majority of Muslims. I get very uncomfortable when a whole community is denigrated because of the acts of individuals.

The point, for me, that Fatah is making is that until non-muslims and muslims recognise and accept that there are attitudes, commands even, written down in the Koran, which espouse jihadist behaviour, and until we all say that this is not acceptable, even though it is seen as a holy book, we are simply hiding our heads in the sand.

Obviously, moderate muslims do not follow jihadist ideas, just as christian crusaders no longer go and kill in the name of their religion, unless they are nutters like Breivik. However, I rather think he's just an out and out racist rather than a religious crusader.

That's not the point. And no-one is saying that the guys at Woolwich 'represent' Islam. But they are following an extreme Islamic idea. Moderate (normal) muslims need to talk a bit louder about rejecting such ideas and not say, as the Muslim Council of Britain said, that this has "nothing to do" with Islam. As Fatah, says, it does have something to do with Islam, and we need to oppose islamic jihadism.

Interstitial links Joan and thank you.

I'm quite sure that the appalling weather has helped calm the situation somewhat. Riots tend to happen on warm summer nights when groups of youths (of any persuasion) are bored and looking for a cause. I saw on the news last night that there have been 5 days of rioting in Stockholm.

This is true, Aka.

Here is a bit of positive stuff I've found so far:

French rap star Abd al Malik inspires change among inner city youth
www.theoptimist.com/magazine/%28view_issue_story_detail%29/32079

The real roots of extremism
Foreign policy decisions often arouse popular anger but it is naive to blame them for militant Islamism

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/17/islam-religion

Extremists behind anti-war protest driven off the streets by moderate Muslims
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
UPDATED: 17:19 GMT, 30 May 2009
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1189577/Muslim-extremists-anti-war-protest-driven-members-community.html

Well said when.

What worries me is that this plays right into the hands of extremists like the EDL who will use it to stir up more hatred.

Many Muslims will denounce this view Bags. These terrorists are not representative of Islam in the same way that Anders Brevik is not representative of Christianity. Extremists will always try to drag down the peace-loving people they claim to speak for. They speak for themselves, no-one else.

This country is in danger of treating peace-loving Muslims as the enemy within, if we take notice of the propaganda that is being disseminated at every turn.

Tarek Fatah's article saying jihad ^does^ have its basis in Islam and we need to stop pretending it doesn't.

I have been looking for evidence of Muslims opposing islamist radicals, and have found some good stuff. There were crowds of Luton Muslims in 2009 shouting at some radicals and telling them to get away, when the radicals were setting up a hate stall in 2009, and a recent article by a Muslim who had been a radical, and now denounces such attitudes. Baroness Sayeeda Warsi is also a strong voice against radicals, and a strong voice against police and others doing nothing when faced with Muslim crime and misconduct, rather than be accused of racism. There was a French Muslim rapper who showed and sang about his deep hatred for French values and society, who wholeheartedly recanted his views after a visit to Morocco, where he saw the truth about how Islamist ways hurt society. He realised that French society was infinitely more just and more positive for families.

I'll try to find them again and post the links.

Barbarism is barbarism whatever direction it comes from.

Of course the murder in Woolwich was barbaric and horrifying, but two deranged individuals carried out this terrible act, not a community. I find the mob mentality that vilifies and attacks ordinary muslims pointless and dangerous. If a whole community feels hated, I think it is bound to generate further hatred and radicalisation.

The UK government aided the US government in an illegal war in Iraq in which it is estimated that over 100,00 Iraqis died. Iraq is now in a state of political and social chaos. Also, its children are suffering the after effects of the white phosphorous and depleted uranium that was used by invading forces. www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/25/fallujah-iraq-health-crisis-silence Subsequently, military action in Afghanistan and Libya, has not brought about freedom and progress but has only served to destabilise these countries and cause further mayhem.

The US - with the UK's political and logistical assistance - has continued to engage in illegal killings (and kidnapping ("extraordinary rendition") and torture) on a huge scale. The west has the military hardware to kill with impunity, using unmanned drone air crafts to "target" suspected terrorists. Such "targetting" is not very precise and has resulted in the deaths of innocent people - many of them children. A study by Stanford and New York University Law Schools revealed that there had been 49 civilian deaths for every "known terrorist" killed by drone attacks in Pakistan.

Why is it considered acceptable to carry out these military operations against muslim terrorists, when it would never have been thought acceptable to risk the death and injury of civilians in order to kill IRA terrorists? Indeed, IRA bombers were not considered by a substantial number of US citizens to be terrorists - until the US experienced terrorism itself, after which the funding dried up.

Yes, we need everyone to have their attitude.

I think it shows the spirit of the British people, when the Help for Heroes website crashed under the weight of people wanting to donate, after Drummer Lee Rigby was murdered. Attack us and you strengthen us - like the Blitz. [i]That [/i]had the opposite effect of what Hitler wanted. And let's face it, these Islamic radicals are as bad as, if not worse than the Nazis, complete with the antisemitism, indifference to human life, wanting to keep women in the kitchen, and sickening cruelty.

Yes, today's Islamists (as opposed to ordinary Muslims) are modern Nazis, which is why appeasement is pointless. And just like in the aftermath of the Nazi era, people will be asking: "Why don't the ordinary Muslims (like those Germans of old) do more? Can they not see what is being done in their name and be more pro-active against it? Because wringing your hands and saying that this is not being done in my name, is not enough - not enough now, as it was not enough in Nazi Germany"

I sense the winds of change. I wonder where they'll blow?

Hats off to Gemini Donnelly-Martin and her courageous mother, Amanda, who knelt by the dead man to prevent him from being further attacked and to pray for him. Also to Cub Scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett who spoke to the killers in order to deflect them from committing further harm. What extraordinary courage.

RIP Drummer Lee Rigby. Thoughts and prayers with your family and all the emergency services who attended, I know that they will never wipe the images from their minds.

Also those members of the public who showed such courage in the face of such horror.
God bless and keep you all.

I think those hurting most will be the families of service personnel afraid for their loved ones.

This is a horrific crime. It will be made even worse if it creates greater divide in communities in the country and allows other extremists a stronger foothold.

The soldier's family need all the support and kindness that is possible at such an appallingly sad time.

The issue of Shia Muslims killing Sunni Muslims & vice versa is a sad fact, like Catholic/Protestant Christians..but does not make the deaths of innocent Muslim people as a result of a foreign (US/British) war any less awful. We should not have gone to a phony war then we would not have lost so many young British men.

Those hurting most will include the many thousands of peaceful Muslims, worrying about reprisals.

I agree, whenim but I'm glad it was shown last night as I'm full of admiration for the woman who had the courage to confront him.

I hope the footage of the terrorist with Lee Rigby's blood on his hands is not shown again. His poor family have enough to deal with.

What I thought was amazing that 'the Help for Heroes' website crashed with people wanting to donate. One way of showing support for the victim of this dreadful crime.

I'm very uncomfortable about the news coverage I've seen so far.

One of the murderer's rants after committing his horrific act was about our soldiers killing innocent civilians and this horrible attack was a justifiable reprisal. Many of us were very opposed to us going to war in Iraq, I know I was. I don't think we should be involved in other countries conflicts because inevitably we will be accused of interfering and lets face it America, who interfere all over the place, have never learnt from our mistakes when we were an imperialistic power. Nevertheless, more Muslims are killed by other Muslims I don't think I have ever heard any criticism, other than by non Muslims of some of the atrocities committed in Darfur for example. It's strange that whenever radicals refer to their brothers being slain they are fairly selective about which atrocities they refer to.

I agree with the comment on that article: "it all seems such a coincidence that we are bombing their children and they hate us for it".