Appalling News

granjura I agree with you entirely. Naturally, most people disagree with violence as a means to achieve justice, but it's inevitable that if one group is denied basic equality and human rights they will use force if there is no legitimate way open to them.

I agree with others who have said that any pronouncements made by Blair are likely to be disregarded, given the mayhem his own disgusting and illegal actions have caused.

Eloethan, you raise a very interesting and difficult point about the relative 'acceptability' of terrorism. If we think about Apartheid in South Africa, of which my OH's family were victims (the family split depending on their relative color into 3 groups who were no longer allowed to meet- pushing OH's parents to flee to the UK thanks to one grand-father being British).
Did Mandella and the black people of ZA have a choice? Could they go to the ballot box to win the cause? They had a choice - fight or give in.

I remember the outcry by many when a park in Leicester was re-named Mandela Park when he was released from prison. And yet- who does not now admire him totally for what he achieved?

Do the Palestinians really have the opportunity to fight the occupation by Israelis via the ballot box and peaceful means?

Very difficult this. If I had been black in 1940s ZA, or if I was in Palestine now and seeing all my land taken away and my people bombed and shot - what would I do? Not sure. But I've always been a fighter rather than a runner.

jopa if you research the history of the East End you might be surprised o learn just how ethnically mixed it is and always has been. Nobody who lived there has been driven out by being made to feel like 'an alien in their own country'.
I'm also very wary when someone says 'this is not racist' as it invariably sounds very much like that to me.

I don't think I'm likely to take much notice of the opinion of someone I regard as a war criminal.

How many deaths of innocents is he, an ardent Christian, responsible for I wonder.

I don't trust Tony Blair, who has a record of seizing upon poorly-sourced information/propaganda and misusing it. He speaks for himself. He moves in a high-powered world where the average man and woman on the street don't figure. I am suspicious of his motivation for choosing to write this article. Another multi-national business deal he can pull off by taking this stance? He certainly isn't helping to move things on.

Sorry - forgot to convert link,
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334451/Tony-Blair-says-murder-Lee-Rigby-PROVES-problem-Islam.html?ICO=most_read_module

Here is a hard-hitting take on Islam from an unexpected source - Tony Blair.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2334451/Tony-Blair-says-murder-Lee-Rigby-PROVES-problem-Islam.html?ICO=most_read_module

^Writing in today’s Mail on Sunday, he departs from the usual argument that Islam is a peaceful religion that should not be tainted by the actions of a few extremists.
Instead, Mr Blair urges governments to ‘be honest’ and admit that the problem is more widespread.
‘There is a problem within Islam – from the adherents of an ideology which is a strain within Islam,’ he writes.
‘We have to put it on the table and be honest about it. Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.’

He adds: ‘At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it.’^

I've bent over backwards to try to be fair to Muslims, to assume that almost all of them condemn murder being done in their name and the name of Islam, and I'm probably right. But this quote: "....the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.’ " is at the heart of our worries about that religion and its adherents.

Eloethan given you live in East London and your neighbours are all muslims, your tolerance is commendable. Do you not understand though that people who previously lived where you do, those old East End families that relocated, not because they wanted to. but because they felt aliens in their own country had a right to feel 'pushed out'? Maybe not because they were but when your neighbourhood is swamped by another culture and you no longer feel at home in your own country, all you can do is to find somewhere else.

Personally I don't like walking down a street in England and feeling slightly ashamed if my arms are bare. Having old men look at me disapprovingly.

I commend your tolerance but this is not racist. This is all about religion, sadly. I fail to see how we can integrate with a culture which requires women to cover themselves and deems men, supreme.

Lee Rigby's parents have made the statement that he would not want, and nor do they want, any reprisals for his death.

I understand that the context of this murder has made it more newsworthy but I believe each life is equal.

As someone else posted earlier there are tragically many murders. Each victim is somebody's child /partner /son /daughter /parent. I do not think the death of Lee Rigby is any more or less terrible than any other murder victim.

On another point I do think that society is stupid if it does not consider why there is a growth of violent extremists from within the Muslim community.
The wars in which Western countries have been involved , the political lack of will to really work on a solution for the Israel/Palestine problem(caused by GB) etc etc has created an ideal breeding ground for unrest and 'fundamentalist' attitudes to be promoted. I do not condone the violence in any way but I think we should be aware of how political circumstances have
enabled it and various governments responsibilities in creating the scenario.

Yes, she did try - she did exactly what I would have done - moved the family away from the bad influences.

But he went back, and was too old for her to stop him.

I guess you're right Movedalot, about children turning out the way they do. It's so easy to be self-congratulatory when they turn out ok. But this mother does seem to have tried.

Jess it can be really interesting to be in the minority and see how we are treated. We went to the naming ceremony of the son of one of DH's staff and were the only white people there. It was fascinating and gave us the chance to eat things we had never even thought of eating. We were accepted and not treated as different.

We were also the only white people at a huge Sikh wedding where we were treated differently. The Sikh women were drinking soft drinks but one of the young men thought about it and offered me a pint of beer! They really looked after us and tought us their dances. We had a lot of fun.

I don't think that sympathy/empathy are rationed, we can feel for the soldier's family and also the murderers families. They are all suffering in their own different ways. As they say 'But for the grace of God go I'. None of us knows what might have happened to our own children if they had got into the wrong company. If yours have turned out well with no problems, well done but it may not be all down to parental influence so don't congratulate yourself or condemn the families who have not been so fortunate.

Absolutely terrifying, and sickening.

Article by Jonathan Manthorpe about how Saudi Arabia funds jihadist terror. It was a tweet by Tarek Fatah that alerted me to this.

There are many ways to lose a son and can absolutely understand that losing one to fundamentalism, mental illness or crime must be terribly painful. Brave of the family to make a statement I think. Though i suspect they may be under seige by the press.
Eleothan I agree re Muslim areas - not threatening. There may be exceptions.
I remember the first time I went to Southall - about 20 years ago I thought "How wonderfully exotic!" It was fascinating to see the sari shops, jewellery shops, Asian veg etc.
I guess the problem is that it takes time to get used to being in the minority. We went to the next door neighbour's party where we were the only non- Nigerians. Interesting experience.
Being in the minority in certain situations can give us an insight into what it is like being in the minority as an immigrant.

GrannyA I really admire your ability to empathise with the feelings of both family, especially considering your own loss. The pain this must bring back

Is it possible to have a discussion about this horrifying and tragic event without feeling the necessity to "take sides"? A young man is dead and his family is grieving. Why mobs taking to the streets shouting hatred is going to redress that, I don't understand. Why two people fire bombing a mosque is going to make matters better, I understand even less.

Sel It seems your remark that "some might say" the IRA had "a legitimate cause" suggests that some acts of terrorism are more understandable than others. I strongly oppose violence, however legitimate the cause, but I believe if one group of people is violently oppressed by another group of people, pointless acts of retribution tend to follow. I therefore feel that remarks that characterise people as "different" or "other" merely serve to create a feeling of alienation and make matters worse.

I live in east London. My neighbours are muslims, as are several families in my street. While I have little time for the muslim religion, or indeed any organised religions, I have found my neighbours to be pleasant and friendly. Green Street, Forest Gate, is an area of London that is, I would say, around 95% muslim. I often go to a vegetarian restaurant there and I have never experienced a feeling of unease while in the area.

Yes, there may be aspects of each other's various cultures that are troubling or with which we disagree, but I feel we will all have a much safer society if we think more about what we have in common with one another than on what divides us.

I DO have a tremendous sympathy for the family of the alleged killer of Lee Rigby and I admire them for publicly expressing their condolences and for condemning the killing. That doesn't in any way detract from the feelings of sorrow I have for Lee's own family - indeed this week has been very, very hard as I've been re-living my own week of hell as this tragedy has come at the same time as we are mourning our own soldier. I have all too clear an idea of what the Rigby family is going through right now.

Have you read the book or seen the film 'We Need to Talk About Kevin'?

I think you're probably thinking with your heart?

I don't follow that reasoning celebgran.

I think having ex army son makes me short on sympathy for the murderers family

The Christian mother of the main murderer tried for years to straighten him out, even moving away from London. But he went back. He converted to Islam about 10 years ago, and converts can often be the worst.

Both families deserve our sympathy. Turn the other cheek or an eye for an eye?

Prefer to save my sympathy for the. Poor soldiers chid, widow parents and fiancé.

Beyondawful