Government should act to abolish Sharia courts

When I heard about the woman who wanted to appear in court with her face covered I did wonder how anyone could be sure that it was, in fact, the correct person who was there. Couldn't being quite sure of someone's identity be another reason for asking for faces not to be covered in court?

Interesting - but not surprising. A close friend who was a Magistrate left after being accused of racism for saying she felt uncomfortable about taking evidence from anyone with their face covered. She wanted to watch their expressions and emotions and said she wouldn't be expected to hear evidence from someone in a balaclava or motor cycle helmet that covered the face. There must be magistrates who are blind or partially sighted, and I expect they manage. I'll be interested to see the Judge's ruling on whether he'll take evidence from her with her face covered. I suspect he won't have a choice. I feel uncomfortable about this but recognise it's not a straight forward issue...

It seems that the Judge in question has now backed down...

uk.news.yahoo.com/defendants-full-face-veil-allowed-151819915.html#F3ku7TW

Slightly off the subject of Sharia Courts, but pertinent to the discussion about the emancipation of Muslim women, I don't know whether anyone was listening to Matthew Wright's discussion show this morning. One of the subjects covered was a recent ruling by a Birmingham college banning the niquab. One of the people who phoned in on this subject was a Muslim girl who was extremely outspoken, in a good way in her opinion of the need to fit in with the culture of the country you are living in. She apparently told her friends who wore face coverings that they should go back to where they came from as this had no place in western culture, her words not mine, her sentiments were well received by the studio audience. I believe a judge recently asked a witness to uncover her face in court as he was of the opinion that her whole face needed to be seen by the jury. I think this is a perfectly reasonable request the eyes are not the only part of the face that register expression and emotion. At best they come across as a barrier, something to hide behind and make the wearer anonymous and at worst they just look sinister, after all they were the chosen facial apparel of highway robbers!

If women go willingly to these courts , any of them, and agree to abide by their decision, that's fine - but I very much doubt it.

Surely the sharia 'courts' can only function within the UK law - anything else is by definition illegal. After all, there are Jewish 'courts', and the CofE certainly has its own 'courts' - no reason why Islam shouldn't rule on questions of its ritual and dogma.

reddevil3 findyourmp.parliament.uk/

If only we could!

I am aware of the colonial history greatnan. The hypothetical question was referring to the present day. Try turning the tables in modern day Iran, for instance.

Actually, Reddevil, that is exactly what Britain did in all the countries it conquered, and the law systems of many former colonies are still based on the English courts. In general, that was an improvement on summary justice handed out by some overlord.

It is difficult to challenge abuses of women and children if everything you say is taken as being prejudiced and anti-muslim. It is fear of being labelled racist that has stopped schools, social services and police from intervening to protect the vulnerable from cruel 'cultural' practices.

Thanks thatbags for the thread. I had no idea that this is going on in Britain - can you imagine what would happen if the tables were turned and British people living in Muslim countries tried to set up British courts?
I am appalled- does anyone know how to first of all find your local MP and secondly how to complain to him about these 'goings on' ?

Thanks Lily and penstemmon for your posts - and When for the link to the prosecution. I've just posted on the child Bride death thread, which links to this discussion

I agree, Penstemmon. Focus on the issue.

I think it is difficult to get a rational and reasoned discussion going about genuine concerns about female oppression because they get caught up in general anti-Muslim attitudes which sometimes are very prejudiced.

I do think that within some of the national media it appears to be that Muslims as a group are often being identified in a more and more negative light and one that is not always accurate and sometimes 'scapegoating'.
Whilst there are Muslims who are political/religious extremists and that some cultural practices within predominately Muslim communities regarding women are completely unacceptable there are also a huge number of Muslims who live honest and decent lives. The continued negative focus acts to alienate and maybe even radicalise some people.. a kind of self fulfilling prophecy.
I am not advocating any sort of censorship of news but just balanced and well informed news reporting!

downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/whnews/whnews_20130910-1217a.mp3

interesting non-sensational discussion about exploitation of Asian girls on woman's hour R 4.

Thanks for the info lilygran. It's good to get as much info as possible about this practice.

One of the problems in discussing this subject is that one is likely to be accused or being intolerant/racist if you criticise such practices. This kind of nervousness seems to have stopped schools reporting 'missing' teenage girls who had been taken to Pakistan to be married. The girl who was murdered by her parents some time ago had tried to kill herself by drinking bleach when they tried to force her to marry an older relative.
Marriages between close relatives in the Pakistani/Bangladeshi communities have led to an above average number of birth defects and I wonder if this could be one way of convincing parents that it is not a good idea.

I have changed my opinion regarding Sharia Courts. I originally thought, as they had no legal clout, they were relatively harmless. Having read more, though, I believe they generally undermine our own judicial system that, at least in principle, recognises that women have equal rights to men. I would add that there is a similar Jewish Court system which has also been criticised for the way it operates in favour of men, but this doesn't seem to receive so much coverage.

Like J08, I was uncomfortable about the tone of the Sharia Court article and the way it rubbishes multiculturalism. I wondered what Dispatch International was and so did a quick search. It appears to be a Norwegian/Swedish publication. One article is entitled "Leading elites are blind to the consequences of low-IQ immigration" and there is also an article defending the EDL.
I

I second that Stansgran

Makes me want to throw up.

Two plus two in this case equals an undistributed middle, bags

From a WHO information sheet
Who is at risk?
Procedures are mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15, and occasionally on adult women. In Africa, more than three million girls have been estimated to be at risk for FGM annually.

About 140 million girls and women worldwide are living with the consequences of FGM. In Africa, about 101 million girls age 10 years and above are estimated to have undergone FGM.

The practice is most common in the western, eastern, and north-eastern regions of Africa, in some countries in Asia and the Middle East, and among migrants from these areas.

Cultural, religious and social causes
The causes of female genital mutilation include a mix of cultural, religious and social factors within families and communities.

Where FGM is a social convention, the social pressure to conform to what others do and have been doing is a strong motivation to perpetuate the practice.
FGM is often considered a necessary part of raising a girl properly, and a way to prepare her for adulthood and marriage.
FGM is often motivated by beliefs about what is considered proper sexual behaviour, linking procedures to premarital virginity and marital fidelity. FGM is in many communities believed to reduce a woman's libido and therefore believed to help her resist "illicit" sexual acts. When a vaginal opening is covered or narrowed (type 3 above), the fear of the pain of opening it, and the fear that this will be found out, is expected to further discourage "illicit" sexual intercourse among women with this type of FGM.
FGM is associated with cultural ideals of femininity and modesty, which include the notion that girls are “clean” and "beautiful" after removal of body parts that are considered "male" or "unclean".
Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.
Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to upholding the practice.
In most societies, FGM is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.
In some societies, recent adoption of the practice is linked to copying the traditions of neighbouring groups. Sometimes it has started as part of a wider religious or traditional revival movement.
In some societies, FGM is practised by new groups when they move into areas where the local population practice FGM.

I think they are going all out at the moment to stop FGM. I hope so.

If British police are ignoring women reporting these threats against them, it is diabolical. The law in this country is the British law, not Sharia. I hope someone is advising these women to seek out their MPs.

Tbh I don't really trust rags like this online one, but I think I have heard about this before.

And Sharia law is Islamic and we know it allows female oppression too. Two plus two....

But it more often happens in Islamic societies than many others, lily. Islamic culture is not the same as the religion but the religion is part of the culture and as far as we can tell, not enough is being done to protect girls from abuses like FGM and being married off too young in cultures where it most often happens. Saying it has nothing to do with Islam is head in sand stuff.