Nairobi

@hally1956: @markcalaz72 @Gone2farFar @David_Cameron I suppose worst attack on Christians in Pakistan history nothing to do with Islam either?

@QueenLareefer1: The terrorist shot randomly killing every one... Oh no wait, no they didn't they separated the Muslims & killed the non Muslims.

Bags - I feel so weary about this - you are so right but out comes all the guff about when acts in the name of religion aren't anything to do with the religion really.....etc etc etc. What to say?

They claim this is retaliation for something committed in Somalia...

Any excuse, eh?

Of course it's all about Islam, just as The Troubles in N.I. and paedophile priests are all about Christianity - the difference is the way these things are reported.

You don't see headlines 'Christians rape children' or 'Christians plant bombs'.

No you don't. Neither of course do you see a headline that says Atheists Rape Children. Although indeed, some do. It's the crime that should be condemned, not the belief system, whatever form that takes.

We have been told that Islam is a religion of peace. How come so many adherents haven't got that message?

I have no idea, however, the great majority of Muslims are not violent criminals and condemn these actions as strongly as those of no religion or other religions do. It is a sad fact of life that murderous fanatics will latch on to any belief system or distorted idea - remember the holocaust, or the millions killed by the Pol Pot regime - to justify their evil acts.

I only wish I had the answers.

Good point, riverwalk, about the way things are reported but I think the Christian crusaders in times gone by were just as bad as these Islamic jihadists. It is the violent crusading mentality and whatever encourages that that is the problem.

I don't know what the answer is either, but perhaps if normal muslims did more to eradicate the jihad mentality and the encouragement of it in some of their mosques it would help. I don't know if I'm completely off on a wrong tack but it does seem that christianity has done this since the time of the christian crusades and it does seem, to me, that Islam still has to do this. What, if anything, can the rest of us, religious or not, do to help?

Here is another thought-provoking tweet. @SamHarrisOrg: I know it had nothing to do with it, but how would these people speak IF they had been motivated by Islam? t.co/7G32ZfW8YV

A hugely complex question. But as I referred to Pol Pot above I quote Wiki. 'The Khmer Rouge banned all religion and in the killing fields forced thousands to dig their own graves and buried them alive as bullets were not to be wasted'.

It's the evil distorted sense of any ideology that gives rise to these terrible acts. And you are right thatbags, that any religion, any group, society, government, pressure group and so on, must do whatever they can to counteract these evil ways of thinking and acting.

And in regard to Somalia, there is a twenty year failure of African states and western powers to take decisive action over this failed state. Apart, that is, from the power struggles within al-Shabaab. And, we should all ask ourselves who makes and sells the weapons which are used by terrorists.

Perhaps we could all make a start by joining the Campaign against the Arms Trade.

@GhaffarH: The most persecuted & victimised people in Middle East & South Asia right now are Christians, can we calm down with the self-pity Muslims?

https://twitter.com/ghaffarh/status/382053602174722048

Possibly this should relates more to the thread about niqab and burka, one of the reasons they make be shudder is the subliminal notion that there are those, albeit a small minority, within the Muslim religion who would wish to impose a caliphate on the whole of the western world and everything that goes with that Sharia law, stoning to death for perceived sexual misdemeanors and the "wrong" sexual orientation, women covered from head to foot, forced conversions for apostates. It all smacks of the catholic church at its most hideous during the reign of terror under the guise of The Spanish Inquisition. One of the many black, black periods of the church's history. Conversely it was the Muslim population who were further advanced in many ways at that time then their christian counterparts and suffered greatly at their hands.

There was an interesting article in The Times on Sunday written by a female journalist who adopted niqab for a short period and the hostilities she encountered, needless to say unprovoked, but what she did also feel from some she put down to possible fear from it's associations to "horrible happenings" and feelings are still quite raw from the awful Lee Rigby murder, not that I am trying to say that was carried out by a woman, but the perception that the wearer may be a supporter of radicalism. I have heard that the white woman Samantha Lethwaite, a burka wearing Muslim convert and much sought after terrorist is thought in some way connected to this truly appalling act of terrorism in Kenya.

Many apologies for dragging this into a separate thread, but in some ways it is all part and parcel of the same thing the great fear that some of us have in seeing another culture seek to dominate the free world by imposing their skewed values on the rest of us. Evangelical religious fanatics are always scary whatever their denomination it's possibly how the momentum of an ideology, not confined to the Muslim world of course, can become a tidal wave in a short period of time.

@Bobsmith254: waiting for the tide of indignation by moderate Muslims, condemning the atrocities in Nairobi...any idea when it's coming?!

I disagree. This is all about Islam and the wish of the few extremists to impose their will on the majority of peace loving Muslims. In this case they want Somalia to become a fundamentalist Islamic state and strike back at neighbouring countries who are, in their eyes, trying to thwart their ambitions.

All extremists are dangerous be they Christian, Hindu, Jewish, etc and they recruit the ignorant and the disillusioned to their causes.

Who or what are you disagreeing with, aka? What you've said is what I think too. Must make myself clearer.

'A tweet by @REnlightenment: Nairobi was nth to do with Islam'

Indeed.

That tweet was sarcasm. Have a look at a few of his other tweets on the subject.

A long time back when football clubs started having problems with their supporters I thought how can they be responsible for their followers, but then I changed my mind and thought as they are encouraging followers they are responsible for them. The football clubs did start taking responsibility, and took measures to try and eliminate it. The Muslim religion has quite a lot of problems with it's followers around the world and I will form my opinion of the religion by what responsibility they take for these followers and what measures they take to eliminate it.

Appeasing islamism leads to more terrorism by Martin Parsons, who has a PhD in Islam and Christian-Muslim Relations and has written a major academic book on this subject.

Anyone who calls this article anti-muslim is not paying attention properly. It is anti-islamism. Not the same thing.

Fundamentalism is a dangerous and vicious tool of war mongers. They prey on young, poor and disaffected people, they give them a 'family' and a 'cause' . It results in horrific and appalling massacres.

The more groups feel alienated and ostracised the more terrorists are created. Be careful with your vitriol.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance Bags I simply am unable to keep up to date with current sarcasm and tweets.

The book 'The Reluctant Fundamentalist' by Mohsin Hamid, fiction though it is, does give us some understanding of the reasons for the radicalisation of young and sometimes well educated Muslims.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/douglas-murray/2013/09/no-mr-cameron-the-kenyan-massacre-is-all-about-islamism/

Islamism - political Islam, aiming at a worldwide caliphate, to be achieved by jihad. We got rid of a major bulwark against this when we took on Saddam Hussein the same might be true of Assad: talk about the devil and the deep blue sea.