Mark Duggan

Set a thief to catch a thief?

Yes well after her death i heard that Amy Winehouse's dad was being consulted about alcohol abuse. Maybe these things in the press are code for "we've invited them to a meeting"

I read somewhere that the Duggan family has been invited by the Coroner to 'help shape police firearms procedures'.

I'm very surprised at that, if it's true.

Why did he have a gun in the first place, I doubt if it was a fashion accessory ?????

Stansgran - I know the Manchester family well. They were neighbours for a while, it was a complete nightmare, aggressive, drug dealing, criminal gang of crooks. Huge extended family, and whilst I acknowledge all the children, including the ones currently in their 40's and in HMP had a very tough childhood, they also made choices. So many agencies and ordinary people have tried to help them, but they enjoy their notoriety I believe. They also relish the power it gives them over other people. His uncle was one of those arrested during the Manchester riots. He had a gang of young lads out stealing from shops and was caught on CTV taking goods from them, and putting stuff in the back of his car. His mother cannot have failed to know exactly what she was exposing her son to, i.e. drug dealing, crime, violence, guns etc.
I agree Jing, that some of us have a better chance in life than others, but because of the nature of my work, and in my personal life, I know many people who had very tough childhoods, but did not choose to continue the criminal and abusive lifestyle in which they grew up.

Is that not being dragged into crime then?

I know, he was a man by the time this happened and he made his own choices. But some people do have a better chance in life than others.

He was not dragged into crime. He was sent to live with the wife of a drug baron in Manchester ,his mothers sister I believe. Various members of that family were stabbed or murdered I forget which. He grew up in a culture of crime being normal. The police have no hope against these people.

I think the shooting was justified. He was certainly carrying a gun, but threw it out of the car window, but the police weren't to know that. Imagine if Duggan has started firing at the police and bystanders were killed. The police would be blamed for NOT firing at him. He was a gun carrying drug dealer!!

They can't win. They do a brilliant job for which we should be grateful. Yes - there are probably some 'bad apples' but that applies to any job, profession, whatever.

JessM, assuming by mamie it is me you are talking to, I would never be so naive to think that "it never has over the timescale you mentioned" (not that you actually do mention one).

Yes, some deaths in custody "over the years" will undoubtedly have been down to police neglect or unnecessary force. This is not what you said though, is it?

Your statement was:
There have also been many "deaths in custody" over the years that were probably the result of brutality in the cells.

This is the sort of sweeping generalisation that is used as yet another stick to bash the police with, and gives justification to the Cregans and Moats of this world and their many followers and apologists.

Like POGS, I wonder anyone signs up, but I'm very thankful that they do.

POGS Absolutely!!!! I am sure there are some less than reliable policeman around as in any job, but it seems they can't win whatever they do . We don't know all the background to most of their investigations. I have the utmost sympathy for the jury too. BTW Brendawyms, yes I think you are missing something : surely there is no comparison between this case and the marine killing the Iraqui man.

Didn't say it was still happening mamie but you can't believe that it never has over the timescale I mentioned? My point is that trust is not high. The fact that I believe it has happened more than once in the last 40 years is indicative of that.

Jess "American cop etc shows tend to create a very false view of shooting jings."

Vaguely insulting perhaps?

Maggie

My hubby was a policeman and I like your post very much.

I think you have no understanding of the adrenaline rush, the split second decision you have to make under certain circumstances if you have never been placed in such a scenario.

Our police are not trigger happy but they put their life on the line and believe you me there is always the worry that if you make a mistake you are going to loose your job, pension and all the worries that would bring to you and your family. I don't know why men and women still volunteer to be a firearms bobby.

The case went to court, a jury made a decision. I can only imagine the fear the jury were under given the behaviour of the public gallery and I wouldn't mind betting they gave very serious consideration before they made their decision. I certainly would not have wanted to serve on that jury!!

"probably the result of brutality in the cells"

Yes, there's a lot of that. I know someone who was punched in the throat on Christmas Day and then took a full mouth full of phlegm to the eye.

She's a police officer though, so that's okay. Just a normal day for the front line. Comfort and joy?

My husband has always had many contacts in the shooting world, from Olympic medallists to Servicemen. They are all unanimous in saying that shooting to disarm is a myth. Shooting to kill is the only sure way to stop somebody.
I was rather disturbed by the bit of film I saw of the shooting because it seemed quite a busy street to start shooting in. It wouldn't have needed much to go wrong and there would have been innocent casualties.

Nfk Stop & Search is probably not used for suspected armed criminals but more for suspicion of drug/petty crime . I know several black men who have been stopped and searched on frequent occasions. They are not criminals. It is always embarrassing and distressing. On a number of occasions the attitude of some of the police was inappropriate. I know loads more white men than black but none of the white men I know have ever been stopped and searched, except my brother when he was a teenager and was hanging out in a mixed group.

I've just heard on the news that there may be a recommendation that the police should be more sensitive and courteous re stop and search.
Sort of "Excuse me Sir, I believe you may possibly be carrying a gun. Would you please be so kind as to clarify this?"

Very sad for the family that this young man got sucked into gang culture and then, as a result, was accidentally shot. Maybe vest videos would help the problem that the police have tended to close ranks and consequently diminish our trust in them. They mishandled the immediate aftermath of this, and the shooting of the Brazilian man.
There have also been many "deaths in custody" over the years that were probably the result of brutality in the cells.
However, making Duggan into a hero or a martyr by holding vigils etc is inappropriate.
I do think the police have improved their standards a lot in the last 40 years, but there is still room for improvement.
American cop etc shows tend to create a very false view of shooting jings.
And we should be glad there is so little of it here. I remember seeing a "role of honour" in Sacramento once - a dozen police shot a year (in the State of California I think not the city)

Very well said.

I thought the same thatbags.

Says it all, really, doesn't it, notso?

Wiki lists the names of Police Officers 'Killed in line of duty as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to stop or solve a specific criminal act' since 1900.

There are 248 names.

70 of them were shot.

I'm not aware of any riots being caused as a result of a Police Officer's death. I don't believe that the families of Police Offiicers killed on duty can subsequently sue the murderer or the murderer's estate.

It is sad that a young man lost his life unnecessarily. I do not know his story & how he became embroiled in gun crime and I certainly do not condone it. I do believe that if you run with weapons you must expect you may die by them..a risk you take. No idea if this man had the capacity to appreciate that.

The anger, at the police and the jury verdict, by the family is understandable. To be fair they have said they do not wish to see any violence or further death or harm as a result of the outcome.

If he had been a victim of a gang shooting or had been the person shooting the fatal bullet the media and public would be calling for more police action.

When police have been killed by criminals the public/media have tended to be sympathetic & supportive of the police.

The great British public appear to be a fickle lot!

I do support the need for speedier inquiries and investigations into any deaths either in police custody or as a result of police shootings. We need to maintain confidence in our police to maintain law and order and that would help!

"Three days after the shooting, on 7 August, after Tottenham had burned and nearby Wood Green had been ransacked, the armed officers were allowed to sit together in a room at Leman Street station in east London for eight hours and write their full statements after conferring."

That's not good.

"On the evening of the shooting, the Met told the IPCC Duggan had fired at officers. The IPCC made that public to journalists, wrongly giving the impression Duggan had been killed after firing at police, without attributing the claim to the Met. One of the officers who had surrounded Duggan had indeed been hit by a bullet, which had lodged in his radio. However, it had not been fired by Duggan but by V53, before it passed through the suspect's arm and hit the officer."

Doesn't really give you a lot of faith in the Met police.

I quite agree, Iam64.