Sex cases in the news

Another aspect, which was reported in this week's Sunday Times, is the knock-on increase in charges of sexual impropriety brought against teachers in public schools. Sometimes known to those in charge but not reported.
In many cases there will be damages awarded (or large fines to be paid) which might lead to the closure of some prep schools.

when surely we are talking about illegal, not immoral, sexual activity.

Yes, some men might take care to ensure that a girl was old enough to give consent before groping or agreeing to have sex but many would not, especially in contexts such as a party or a night out in a pub, or young women coming to their dressing rooms after a gig.

This was especially the case forty years or so ago when 15 year olds were considered to be old enough to know what they were doing by society in general.

Also, a large age gap between the two people concerned is not illegal so long as they are both over 16 and one is not in a position of power over the other (teacher or whatever).

I remember, as a young chap, being at work at London Airport in the early 60's when the Beatles came on. The memory of the thousands of hysterical girls who had come to the airport to see them, the powerful nature of their collective presence, and their odd, high-pitched screaming was unforgetable and a bit frightening. Girls would, indeed, fling themselves on the pop-stars of the day and anybody else associated with the newly-emerging pop and media industries. It was often a saturnalian free-for-all.

I don't condone the more liberated dress-codes and standards of public and private behaviour of the time, but they certainly contributed to and encouraged an expectation of mutual participation and indulgence in many areas of life. However, if men (or women, for that matter) old enough to know better were deliberately preying on vulnerable youngsters, willing or not, and a modern-day court of law can be satisfied as to their guilt, then they should pay the full price of the law for their crimes, no matter how old they are. My concern is as regards the quality of evidence necessary to satisfy the court today of their guilt. Surely noboby wants to see a witch-hunt or unjust clamour for compensation.

In the mid 70's I was the only woman working in an office dept of ten men. I was a seventeen year old who loved fashion, clothes and had just started reading Cosmopolitan. It was my bible. The men in the office were mostly middle aged and above. I was not the least bit interested in any of them. From day one I was constantly having to avoid anyone kissing me, trying to grope my breasts, my bottom. I made it quite clear I was not happy by squirming away, batting off hands as much as I could. At seventeen I felt unable to tell them to clear off in the manner I would use today but I made it plain I found it very unpleasant, in fact repulsive. After a couple of months of being self educated by Cosmopolitan magazine and then other feminist writing I plucked up courage and went to complain to the Big Boss.
He listened and his middle aged secretary, a woman I had opened my heart too was taking notes. At one point I was getting tearful and turned to her and said 'but you know what it's like.' She looked blank and said she didn't. Which was a surprise as she had also been 'cuddled' not groped, grasped, fumbled as I had partly because her mild mannered husband worked in the next building. My boss apparently got a dressing down but I was advised to leave. I did.

Neither rape not severe sexual groping are "sex" crimes; they are entirely to do with power. That is why there is such anger about people in positions of responsibility, authority or held in awe, whether teachers or priests, DJs or pop stars, senior managers or your parents' friend. That is why victims of these crimes are ashamed and embarrassed and still often don't feel able to seek help or even tell anyone about it. Someone earlier mentioned domestic abuse. It is similar – all to do with power and the victim feels embarrassed and ashamed. There should be no hiding place, however long ago the event took place.

Even now in the 21st century, it is a brave person who comes forward and reports what happened – whether 40 years ago or last week. Even with all the new rules and training, it is a painful, sometimes agonising process for women or men, girls or boys.

I have mixed views on this - I too remember dealing with unwanted attention in a matter of fact way and don't recall it being real problem. We knew not to put ourselves in vulnerable situations and took responsibility for our own safety.
I suppose after all this has died down and we move on there will be a shift in the way men treat women. Some of it will be good - women will feel safer,etc., but something will be lost. The vast majority of men who have always been respectful of women will be on their guard and less willing to offer genuine help and affection in case it is misconstrued - in the same way that we all now think twice about about assisting a lost child or chatting to a toddler.

Thought your post spot on, absent.

Agree Rickgran.
Disagree Absent.
Yes, rape is about power, but I think these 'groping' of grown women are purely sexual. Some of these 'victims' of the latter are pathetic. If I was 'groped' in this way, as I bet many of us were when younger, I reacted quite violently and would slap the persons face.

Gosh notgrandma did you never indulge in risky behaviour when you were 14 or 15? I did on many occasions despite having a hugely protective mother. Just because I had to be home by 10 pm did not mean that I did not put myself in many situations in which I could easily have been assaulted. Teenagers are not at all good at risk assessment, that is clearly scientifically raven, which is why there are laws to protect them.

But not everyone is as assertive as you obviously were AKA.

Many of these girls were in very junior positions and feared speaking out; even Flickety who as a manager was an equal seemed to have not been able to confront the offender.

Poor Penquin spoke out and lost her job!

And still it goes on.

Take a look at this

everydaysexism.com/

Lots of examples of groping, vile comments and harrasment among the contributions.

I think that the publicity given to these case has value because the issues have not gone away. There are still men who abuse positions of power to sexually assault, harass or intimidate women. Easy to forget when you are a confident middle aged woman who is not in the target zone for this kind of thing very often. Everydaysexism link is very revealing in terms of what young women experience. Lads mags and the culture that goes with them has probably made things worse in some respects than when we were in teens and twenties e.g. would men ever have dreamed of saying "show us your tits" to a girl or young woman in a disco back then?

About twenty five years ago I was part of a multidisciplinary team working with a sex offender before his discharge from prison. After discharge he re-offended quickly and seriously and received a long sentence in a regional secure unit. Some years later a similar situation arose with a pedophile, we were given a choice but in the end it didn't happen.

At that time there were few opportunities for treatment in the UK, and I have no knowledge of the current situation. However, in the same way that there is a difference between a heavy drinker and an alcoholic, I believe that there is also a difference between a man who sexually offends because the culture or circumstances allow him to do so, and someone who actually has an illness and needs treatment.

From time to time I have read articles about attempts to rehabilitate offenders, from chemical castration in other countries to help being given by the Quakers in this one. It's such a vast problem that I do hope the government is funding a lot of serious research.

I agree with Mishap and Flickety. It was a different time and we've come a very long way in the last 40/50 years. Back then learning to deal with and avoid the groping hands of various men in the office was just part of learning to live in the adult world of work.

I wonder how long it will be before the police start on some of the pop groups.

What about rape then, was that all part of the daily routine? And if it happened 30 years ago should not result in a prosecution. Because rape is what is being talked about in some of these trials isn't it?
Where do you draw the line on stuff that was done in the past? Men did not really think it was morally acceptable to grope colleagues and young girls did they? They thought they could get away with it. And many of them still do. Bringing cases like this helps to send out the message it is not ok, it is a abuse of power and it is not legal, and you may get prosecuted

I don't think there should be prosecutions for groping of grown women done years ago. How can they possibly judge the climate in that particular situation? And by now such a fairly mild sexual assault should be out of time. Rape or real sexual assault is a different thing.

Hopefully the judges will use common sense to sort it all out.

Of course rape was not part of the daily routine. What a silly idea. Who said that?

My point Riverwalk is that over the years more and more woman have risked their jobs, even their reputations, to speak out. The woman in the DLT case was not some poor little, downtrodden office junior. She was DJing on the radio at the BBC as I understand it. She wasn't prepared to speak out then, but now that other, braver, women have over the years paved the way, as it were, she's jumped on their bandwagon.

Well, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem in my book.

Statutory rape was quite common though when I was young.

JessM All of us have always made it very clear that any kind of coercive sexual contact should be prosecuted, no matter how long ago it was. We are talking only about the casual groping which, as so many of us who remember know, was prevalent in the 1960s and 70s. And yes, many men back then could see no problem with a bit of mild groping, the last thing that occurred to them was to think about whether it was moral or acceptable, they just did it. Not all by a long way, but sufficient for it to be an irritant.

If any of those men who groped me, ever appeared in court or had their names in the paper, I would not be rushing to the police to add my name to the list of complaints. It was irritating when it occurred, but that is as far as it went. I wasn't intimidated by it. I found being paid less than a male colleague far more irritating and being asked if I took shorthand or could do a another manager's photocopying even more so.

I was raped and seriously physically abused by my first husband in 1972/3/4, we were with the military and i told many army doctors, X broke my wrist in a door because the butter was cold on the toast. No one paid any attention, until I saw an RAF doctor in Cyprus who immediately hospitalised me due to severe internal injuries. I had a 2 year old at the time.
We went back to the Uk where i was able to escape from X. When my Mother asked why I was leaving him I told her, she said 'DO NOT BE SILLY, AND i DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ANYTHING UNPLEASANT ABOUT THAT KIND OF THING. WHAT DID YOU DO TO MAKE HIM WANT TO DO THAT.
It has coloured my life from then to now, I was 18, I told a so called close friend 10 years ago and she laughed, and said it couldn't have been that bad!!!!!!
First time i have written it down, I told male partners as some time sex is very painful for me and most of them, not all have just ignored it. my SO and last husband understood. but it has not been easy.
X used a coca-cola bottle and left me with internal scarring, on a lighter note try explaining that to the obstetrician.
we are here talking about young girls, and at first i too thought oh yea, money or fame, but after hearing more i think i have a lot more sympathy with the women.

Oh felice how brave of you to write it now. I am moved to tears by that dreadful abuse that you have suffered and are still affected by.
(((Hugs))) to you.

felice That it an awful thing to of happened to you, especially by someone you were close too, I hope it helps you,, by writing in down. You are brave

Felice, I find it incredible that anyone could offer less than sympathy and understanding to you for what you have gone through. You have been the victim of crimes that nobody would argue should not be prosecuted no matter how long ago they happened.

Nor would anyone argue with the cases brought now that relate to these men raping or coercively attacking women, no matter when it happened. In the past we know many men got away with appalling behaviour to women because the women were too ashamed or intimidated or afraid of being blamed, to complain. These cases need to be headlined and the perpetrators punished.

But appalling cases like yours are also why I think many of the cases of groping that are finding there way into the courts should be dropped. Those who perpetrated terrible and violent crimes towards women in the past should be indentified and prosecuted and not allowed to hide their worst crimes behind a clutter of trivial ones like groping.

Felice I do hope that now you have told us you will find the courage to talk to the police about what happened to you and seek the aid of counsellors to be able to talk about these dreadful events in your life.

X is dead now, it just wasn't talked about in the early 70s, even the family doctor when I returned to the UK realised she needed send me for treatment but still could not talk about the reason for it. My mother just assumed i would not be interested in another man anyway, my Father died 3 days after my return to the UK and she assumed as she was on her own that would suit me too, I was 20 by then,,,umm.
Now I have written some down,,, I am adopted, father desperate for children Mother never!!!!!!!, only gave in to agree to adopt when my dad threatened to leave her.
When i was small and people asked if i was her daughter she used to say 'well I look after her'. Insisted on a girl as she had a dependant brother and Sister and I was brought up to understand by her that my role was to look after them. Not my dad but he worked so hard I hardly saw him.
I married the first older handsome Army officer who came along, stupid enough to think you could not get pregnant the first time you had sex.
She is 95 this month in an excellent care home, and i have lived as far away as possible from her as I can. Thereis a lot more to it, some of the things she has done have been horrendous, she did actually go to the Social Services to try and get custody of my oldest son, she is obsessed with him, he lives well away, he was the only one of my 3 my Dad saw. The other 2 she just ignores completely, used to give the oldest one 10£ and the other two 50p.!!!!Got to stop now or I never will.