Women in the armed forces

No, jackthelad, the "girls" as you call them, have chosen to join the forces themselves. "We" have not asked them to join up.

Sailing a submarine is not the same as killing people, you know, and there are lots of other non-combative roles in the forces.

There are rules in war but I agree it is unpleasant and often vile.

No, it's not something I would choose.

Don't worry your pretty little head about this Lad.

Why on earth should women (not "girls" for heavens' sake!) not join the armed forces if they want to?

As Aka says....

While women are away fighting a war the men can bring up the children, run the home, care for elderly relatives etc. Fancy it?

If you think there are rules in war you have not been there. It is not santitized. Once the shooting starts there is abject terror for some and blood lust for others. A situation where there is no control, only death and will to survive. I have grandaughters and grandsons I don't want them to find themselves where conscription comes back and it can make no mistake and they finding themselves having to endure what I went through. It is not a games with a slice of orange at half time and winners shake hands with the losers at the end. All have to endure combat at sometime even the store keepers and the cooks. It is not like Tom and Jerry where no matter what happens everyone gets up again and carries on

This change is well overdue. I wonder what the women of SOE etc thought about women "not being allowed on the front line"? I think attitudes like yours * jack* while possibly well intentioned do no credit to women in all walks of life. Sadly a cynical little bit of me wonders whether this is less to do with equality and more to do with falling recruitment in our armed services. Slap my wrist.

"All have to endure combat at sometime even the store keepers and the cooks"
So many people don't realise this. SiL was a driver with RLC until he was made redundant. I remember my friend being quiet shocked to hear that he could be combatant.

I think females (girls??) should be given the choice. A lot of women strive for equality. If we are to be equal to males, why not in this respect too.

Who said anything about war being sanitised, JTL? If war is bad for women it's bad for men too. You'll have heard of post traumatic stress syndrome, I suppose?

But if women want to fight for their country, it's their choice and not for men to decide for them whether women fighting is "appropriate" or not.

Amazons

Boudicca

Joan

Not as of it's never been done before.

And as for warlike goddesses....

I think a trip to Headley Court might effect your thinking on this subject, but then age is a big factor as to whether you can be called upon to do it.
Remember every soldier is trained to kill for that is what a soldeir, sailor, or airman is there for. Bullets bombs and rockets do not discriminate. To straighten this out I do not want anyone to join up against their will, but if it is a choice make it an informed one and the recruit knows exactly what they are getting into.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you about the horrors of war, JTL. It seems rather patronising to me to suggest that people who voluntarily join the army, navy or airforce don't realise that, depending on the job they do (I'm sure there are non-combatant jobs in the forces; someone has to do the secretarial and administrative work, the engineering, the mending of broken machinery, etc), they may be required to kill.

Girls/women are just as likely as men/boys to make an informed choice of a career in the armed forces, perhaps more so, as it is a less likely career for them to choose.

I would not like it, but that does not mean that other women would not. You would probably not choose to be a dress designer or nursery school teacher, but some men would.

Jack

I respect your view on the subject and I am of the belief it is your empathy and, would I be mistaken, knowledge first hand of military life that has been at the heart of your thread.

I would like to say I was in the TA for 6 years, moons ago, it was a choice of mine and I almost joined up as a Wren. I don't think it is a bad thing if a woman 'chooses' to join the armed forces, that is a given. I do believe that if a serving female 'chooses' to join one of the service arms that will require the possibility of close combat that is her choice.

Women can be as hard as nails and I think there many women who are doing and have done incredably dangerous deeds whilst serving in Her Madge's. The SOE has been mentioned as just one example.

I am going to say something the 'sisters' may not like. I do 'not' think that there is a case for female personnel to be automatically combatant. I believe it to be a personal choice.

I do understand that for a 'gentleman' it will be very difficult to suppress the urge to defend a woman in trouble and that is the only worry I have. Could it be a dangerous situation for everyone in combat, I don't think so but I am sure that is one of the concerns you would have serving alongside a female in a live combat situation. There by hangs a tricky question as it is all well and good for somebody to make a statement but will never put them self in the circumstance as against somebody who will have a realistic chance of having to deal with it at that flashpoint.

I believe that the Greeks had "pals regiments" of male/male lovers because they would fight more bravely to protect those they loved who were beside them.

Can't say I like the idea - but if someone chooses to do this, male or female, then so be it.

I am not of the opinion that those who join up know what they are taking on. Sadly most of my clients who joined up, when I was a social worker, were under-educated, deprived young men who could see no other future than the dole and were seduced by the macho image. They had no idea about the reality.

I hasten to say that I realise that this does not apply to all recruits - I know there are some GNetters who have family in the forces. I am just saying that we cannot be sure that they all go into it with their eyes open - and as jack says, the reality is unimaginably dreadful, so in some ways, no-one goes into with their eyes fully open.

War is dreadful business- and for me (yes, shoot me down if you will) it would be the worst day of my life to know any of my grand-children are joining the armed forces- be they grand-daughers or grand-sons. Why would anyone want to be trained to kill- why is killing a job for men?

A totally different Armed Forces now JTL from when you served the girls I know who served with two my son's when they where on operations in Irag & Afganistan where so well trained at what they did and had the the same jobs as the boys,going out on night patrol with them & other vital tasks such as acting as interpretuers when speaking to the women & children of the area,the female medics going into combat zones to treat wounded men along side other medics,if you where wounded would you object to a female medic treating you I think not,I think you really need to think how important it is having female personell in HMForces and how hard they have to work to overcome the predudice in some cases from some males.

I guess if women see wicked things going on in the world, and want to help protect the things and people they love and respect, then they should be allowed to train and do just that.

Jackthelad - it's most likely a generational thing. Women today are very different from women of 40 years or so ago. If women want equality then it has to be in all things and if they choose to fight frontline, then it is their decision and they shouldn't expect to be treated any differently by their felloow soldiers.

My eldest granddaughter has her future mapped out: police, then armed services and her ultimate goal as bodyguard! Why? I have no idea; a far cry from her Nan being pleased with her very feminine role in life

Females have always filled the role of warrior in history so it is just history repeating itself.

Hmm! I may not like it, but I think that it is inevitable that front-line military roles at all levels will progressively be opened up to women, with no discrimination. Equality is the name of the game these days and that implies that women will have the opportunity to take the rough with the smooth. After all, military service is voluntary. However, I'm sure that my dear old Dad, a lifetime regular soldier, would turn in his grave at the prospect of women front-line troops, but times change. Mind you, whole Celtic families used to turn out for battle in Roman times, including the kids, so perhaps nothing much changes after all.

I'm all for equality of opportunity, but does that mean that men and women are the same? If some women want to go into the forces and be trained to kill, then that's ok, but what if there was conscription? I'm not saying that ALL men are more aggressive. by nature , but you only have to look at the statistics for violent crime to see that men on the whole are more likely to be aggressive , which is what fighting is all about surely?
OK Flack jacket and tin helmet at the ready!!!!
Sorry if this crosses with anybody else's post, but I've been quite slow at writing this.

Jackthelad, I do understand your views and you are probably the only one on this thread who has direct experience of serving in the Forces. Members of my family who were in the Forces for many years are not in favour of this decision either, or of women serving in submarines.

I think this country is probably lagging behind others in this and the Government will have looked carefully at the experiences of other countries before making this decision.

Unless someone is forced to go on the front line against their will I think it is a reasonable decision. Some women will be as tough as, even more so, than some of the men they will serve alongside.
Personally, it is not something I would choose to do although I did want to join the Wrens.
I would not particularly want any of my DC to join, but would not have opposed them if that was what they wanted to do.

Granjura, if, heaven forbid, you or your family were faced with a ferocious enemy I think you would feel thankful if there was a well-trained armed soldier between you and them and that brave soldier would be someone's son or daughter, trained to kill to defend you and your liberty.

I think one or two posts on here are quite unpleasant and offer no reasoned argument anyway, so are fairly pointless.

What is wrong with Jackthelad using the term 'girls' - after all we often refer to the men in the Forces and on the front line as 'our boys in wherever'.
I'm sure he did not mean it in a disrespectful manner, more the vernacular of an old soldier.

I am getting rather cross, best I go and make myself a

I think young women are as capable as young men to make the decision about joining the armed forces and understanding the implications of that.
Young women who want to join the forces will be attracted to an active and physical lifestyle. I presume training would identify any recruit that would really not be suited to combatant experience - male or female.

I don't know if any young person fully understands the implications of being on the front line until they experience it. The theory may be very different to the reality.

But that is their decision to make and it is right imo that they have the chance to make that decision.

I do agree with Mishap's post and would add that quite often joining the Forces can be the making of the young people she refers to in her 2nd paragraph.