EU Vote

I'll echo the previous comments and say 'good post' POGS.

Well said, POGS. Some points:

The European Commission's purpose is to implement the treaties; if this means creating a Federal Europe then this must be achieved regardless of the views of the citizens of Europe, who cannot be trusted to make the right decisions. It is only obeying orders.

The pen is mightier than the sword: at least that's better than Le Pen is mightier than the sword.

De Gaulle supported "l'Europe des patries". Perhaps for once he was right, even though Cameron and Hollande don't quote him these days.

I'd still rather be in than out.

The free movement of labour is an interesting concept, isn't it? When I researched my family tree, I was struck by how nearly all my ancestors had left their origins in the countryside to work in London and the area around it. They mostly became part of the army of clerks who grew to such vast numbers in the nineteenth century. They did not ever go back to Hampshire, Somerset, Caithness and Dorset. I am sure the same thing is true for many other people. How many people still live where their families lived in the eighteenth century? My neighbours here in the French countryside have families who have remained in the village for generations, nevertheless their children have had to leave to find work. I am sure it would be very nice for families if everyone could stay at home and be guaranteed a job, but sadly that is not the reality of economic development. Labour markets change all the time and a population that does not understand that is doomed, I am afraid.
Ana, POGS, I think some of the "fine and dandy" remarks are in response to my posts. I do not see the movement of labour as unalloyed joy, nor do I see it as the preserve of an educated elite. It is about people moving to find work, where work exists. Sad reality, I am afraid and not likely to get any easier as new markets open up. As a species we have to adapt to survive.

Good post Mamie
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/10861252/Europe-has-an-even-bigger-crisis-on-its-hands-than-a-British-exit.html?fb
Interesting article in the Telegraph about how misgivings about EMU are widespread throughout Europe. It's not just the Brits.

I think we should remember that immigrants come here to work. There may be a tiny minority that don't - but work is the motivation for nearly all. If they don't find work the EU migrants return to to their original country. I don't think anyone disputes that. Inward migrants fill essential skills gaps and contribute to the economy in many ways. it is my observation that migrants are also more entrepreneurial (I'm thinking of our commonwealth migrants here, who have been around a bit longer) and start many businesses that also contribute to the UK economy. On balance we are gaining, hugely.
So what of your concern for those UK nationals like Bloggs, who suffer from migration pogs? Who should they be angry with?
1. schools - maybe they should be angry with Gove who thinks that free schools are going to meet increased demand - and who is spending money on free schools in areas where places are not needed, rather than putting money into the expansion of existing schools in areas of high demand?
2. housing - maybe Bloggs should be angry with a government that is doing nothing about the housing shortage other than "right to buy" which is only going to help those who already have good jobs or wealthy parents. Why not stimulate the building of social housing? Very little of that being built these days so of course there is a housing crisis. The vast majority of EU immigrants do not come with families and are not going to be competing for social housing.
3. jobs. I assume we are talking about the kind of low paid work your hypothetical Bloggs might be looking for? Well if local jobs are being advertised abroad it is probably they cannot fill the jobs adequately locally. Let's assume that they are a law abiding employer that is paying minimum wage. How much easier is it to employ local people, who understand the language and are applying for the job through the job centre, than to pay the fees of foreign agencies and take new staff, sight unseen, who may have limited English. Would you not want to interview prospective staff?
Why might they not fill the jobs locally? Just possibly because there are no locals that have the right skills or because they are not willing to do that job. In Caernarfon the hotels employ young Europeans. This is in an area of desperate job shortage. I can only assume that, given they are reputable hotel chains, they cannot find local staff who are willing to reliably work the unsocial shifts or able to give a high level of customer service. So should Bloggs be angry with the immigrants? Or should Bloggs be prepared to work the late evenings, the early mornings and weekends? And should Bloggs perhaps be angry, if he wants to blame something, with an education system that has not equipped him to get a job as a waiter?

Eh! It's rather ivory tower to assume that Bloggs is too uneducated to work as a waiter (is the State system really that bad?) Also, it's rather insulting to Bloggs to suggest that he is so uncouth he can't/or won't manage to be civil to customers.

What if Bloggs is a man in his thirties with young children who needs to rent a suitable family home? How could he compete with young single Europeans with no family commitments when it comes to unsociable shifts and who are prepared to bunk up together with many others in one house?

One doesn't have to be right wing or racist to think that UKIP and other anti unfettered immigration parties have a point. Try looking at it from a Marxist perspective.

petallus I agree, to suggest that our citizens are too uneducated to act as waiters and the like is a terrible indictment of our education system, or possibly if that is the case, too cushioned by a welfare state system that doesn't expect locals to harvest crops say in their local area, but rely on an imported work force. I don't think it would be too much to ask for school leavers do something like this for possibly a season or so.

When travelling to pubs, restaurants and hotels outside the London area, of late, I have often experienced really good service by home grown youngsters.
that's not to say that I don't think the majority of our Eastern European incomers do a very good job as well. I think any well managed place must give whoever they employ some training/guidance when serving the general public, and if they don't, then they are at fault.

Not only that, if Bloggs takes a minimum wage job it is likely to be on a zero hours contract, which can be risky.

I have personal experience of this since DD2 works full time in a local café and just about manages to meet her financial commitments. She does this whilst coping with two children and is often exhausted. If she has a few days off for sickness in herself or the children her already low wages are reduced

Added to this, her employer is now closing the café for two weeks for refurbishment and is not paying wages to his zero hours contract staff during this period. This will mean a serious shortfall in money to pay rent next month. We are fortunate enough to be able to help our daughter but what about those who don't have that kind of backup?

Oh and incidentally, on the theme of brilliant EU workers, my DD2's employer recently took on a Polish woman who was surly to customers and insisted on going outside for a cigarette every few hours although it was made clear to her that this was not acceptable in an environment where food was prepared. She also asked for cash in hand. She didn't last long.

Just thought I'd say!

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the ready availability of migrant workers is an argument in favour of exploitation, low-wages and zero hour contracts, though. Some migrant workers suffer appalling exploitation from the likes of gang masters and that is wrong and should be stopped.
I think you do need to get a balance between flexibility in the workforce and the situation here in France, where on-costs are so high that people in small businesses can't afford to take on workers at all (roughly 100% of salary). These are national arrangements, not EU wide.
I am interested by your Marxist analysis, Petallus. Did you mean broadly, in terms of everything being about economics (over-simplified I know) or more specifically in terms of something like worker alienation?

Here's a thought: I have read many posts from GNs who fully support and endorse the free movement of economic migrants (even to countries where there are housing and job shortages) and are concerned about the welfare and treatment of economic migrants (poor living conditions or lack of housing in general, finding work, exploitation) - given that most of us live in homes with spare bedrooms, why don't those who are so concerned offer the use of those empty bedrooms to economic migrants who are looking for somewhere to live? Offer them odd jobs to do around the home and garden until they find something more permanent? Offer to help scrutinize their employment contracts or speak up on their behalf?

I said Marxist perspective, not analysis Mamie

I was referring to the view that there is a constant trade off between the interests of capitalists, who own the means of production, and workers, who have only their labour to bargain with. The latter group have strength in numbers if they stick together (through unions and so on).

When the availability of labour is in short supply wages and working conditions have to go up. When labour is readily available, when there is even a surfeit, the ability of workers to bargain goes down and wages fall and working conditions deteriorate.

It would seem to follow that if one is a member of the business/professional class immigration would, broadly speaking, be welcomed. If, on the other hand, one is a member of the working class, it would be seen as a threat.

I think that is a good explanation for why people without degrees and with gnomes in their gardens are more likely to have voted UKIP. I prefer it to the alternative suggestion made on this thread that it is because they are uneducated and therefore unable to understand the complexities of the current situation as well of those of us who benefitted from decent educations.

as those

The comment about garden gnomes was meant to be a humorous reference to someone's post a while back suggesting there might be a correlation between voting UKIP and having garden gnomes.

Petallus Wasn't it a UKIP representative who made the remark about Londoners being more educated and therefore less likely to vote UKIP?

Yes I can see what you are saying Petallus. That correlates with what we have seen round here with the poorest villages voting more heavily for the NF. Not that there are any migrant workers here. There just aren't any jobs for anybody. And we know from history that economic ruin and unemployment fuels the rise of extremism, of course.
Of course a lot of the NF voters here voted for the Socialists last time around. That doesn't make the NF anything other than a very right-wing party. (Which seemed to be suggested up thread in relation to UKIP).

Yes, exactly my point janeainsworth

But my original point was that a person does not have to be right wing to vote UKIP.

and with gnomes in their gardens

Petallus Sorry, I thought you were implying with your words 'the suggestion made on this thread' that it was a poster who had made the suggestion.

Yes, you were right. Quite a few posts were implying that people who opposed immigration, voted UKIP or wanted out of Europe were stupid.

Or at least not as intelligent as those with the opposite view

As for the remark that Londoners, being more educated, were less likely to vote UKIP, well that could be interpreted in at least two ways. One, that they were relatively stupid, or two, that they had little to lose from unfettered immigration being in business or the professions.

And incidentally, why do we expect UKIP representatives never to make badly worded or even silly remarks? Members of the other political parties of this country do it all the time.

Reminds me of a well established psychological theory which is that most of have (sometimes unconscious) emotional reactions to people and situations and then look for evidence to support this reaction, all the time believing we are being entirely rational

Well I can't say that any of the pro-UKIP voxpops that have been on radio or TV have displayed any incisive political insight petallus . I do think NF is clever. Can't say about the voters in general but the number and sheer ignorance of some of the pronouncements by MEP, EU candidates and prospective councillors is breathtaking.
I don't think there are going to be any gay people voting UKIP.