Katie Hopkins on dementia patients

Thanks Elegran.

The quote was from a book by David Willetts’ “The Pinch: how the baby boomers took their children’s future – and why they should give it back“

There is good blog at blog.barrypearson.co.uk/?p=3784 demolishing "Some baby boom myths" including the one promulgated by David Willets.

Don't understand "stole our children's future" comment can someone explain please?

Jackie, if we are 'baby boomers' or just a bit older I presume, we apparently took, took, took without a thought for the future, we had higher education paid for by the State, we were able to buy houses cheaply and are now hogging them and not allowing younger people to move into larger houses because many of us want to stay in our homes, we have pensions which they may not be able to afford, etc etc. There is a thread where someone from the Intergenerational Foundation asked us questions - and got answers!

The Intergenerational Foundation researches fairness between generations. It seems to be producing a younger generation who are resentful of older people. Of course, we older people could never have afforded some of the 'jollies' that younger people treat themselves to and consequently moan that they cannot afford to buy a house. Trip to Brazil for the football anyone? A week in a tent in Wales or Cornwall was more like it in my day.

Chris Huhne apparently has jumped on to this bandwagon since he was released from prison; hence my comment about an old lady unable to afford her heating having 'stolen' the future of people like multi-millionaires Huhne and Hopkins who may like to see us all euthanised once we are no longer of any use.

Rant over!

I think the other thread was in response to a question by Angus Hanton (?) if you are interested!

Don't understand "stole our children's future" comment can someone explain please?

Thanks

But generally speaking discussion is all about the worst cases, when I visited my aunt yesterday another resident was crying in her chair and on other visits it has been obvious that she is unhappy inside her self. I do appreciate that some are far worse than that. But like many diseases, the majority do not reach the worst end of the spectrum.

I think we need to remember that in the early stages, in particular the disease is manageable and the person with it can function almost normally with support. I was at a meeting with someone this week, who has been in the early stages for sometime, not yet effecting him enough to seek help, but sufficient for those who have known him a long time to recognise the memory loss and repetition of questions. I was on holiday recently with a friend who is rapidly reaching the stage where she will be unable to live independently. In a familiar location with those she knows about her she is still the person she always was, although it is now clear that holidays away from home now cause problems.

It would be useful to have information on pain relief in terminal care from someone who is or has been involved in palliative care. Both my parents died of bowel cancer. In both cases towards the end they were in a great deal of pain and were given a large dose of dimorphine to relieve this. I was warned in both cases that this had a side effect of restricting breathing and may result in death but is done to keep a patient out of severe pain. It is not done actively to end someone's life.

I'm not sure that Katie Hopkins is that aware of the complex issues involved. Perhaps we should all consider how we would like to be treated if life becomes too difficult and make a living will to this effect. I like [Eleothan's] idea of intrinsic value as a human being.

I believe you can make provision that, should you arrive at a state where it is medically assessed that you have no quality of life and no prospect of recovery, all interventions, bar keeping you as comfortable as possible, should be withdrawn. For instance, no antibiotics would be used to combat pneumonia or other infections.

I can see your point petallus about those Alzheimer sufferers whose lives become a living nightmare, and most of us would dread ending up in this way or having to see it happen to anyone we know. However, this comment by KH seemed almost contemptuous of people with dementia rather than being a compassionate response to suffering.

My understanding is that to relieve pain increasing amounts of drugs can be administered, even if that may cause or hasten death. But drugs cannot be administered with the intention of causing death. Perhaps those who have been in the nursing or medical profession can clarify.

I agree with you Flickety that the contribution of many older people is often overlooked. However, even if someone can't or won't make much of a contribution to society, they should not be consigned to the scrapheap. I'm sure you don't mean that, but we are increasingly being encouraged to look at people in terms of their value to society rather than their intrinsic value as human beings.

It also occurred to me that once there is an assumption that a person with dementia would really be better off dead, couldn't this idea then be extended to other people who might be considered to be in torment or to have no quality of life - those with profound brain damage/learning difficulties, intractable psychiatric illnesses, etc. etc.

I agree Flickety.

It's not a case of 'dwelling on' the worst cases, just acknowledging that they exist.

Not everyone with dementia sits contentedly admiring the roses (although I am pleased that your aunt is doing well). As you know, some suffer terribly, living a life of confusion and torment.

I know of a tragic case at the moment. A man who had been a well known and successful architect recently developed Alzheimers in his mid 60s. Already he is unable to feed himself and is becoming aggressive and his family don't know how long they will be able to keep him at home.

She also forgets the huge benefit we are to the economy.www.saga.co.uk/money/news/2014/june/over-50s-spending-helps-boost-youth-employment.aspx

Without us unemployment would rocket.

Petallus it must be remembered that dementia is many and varied ailment. To dwell on the worst and most difficult cases is liking assuming every rash is leprosy. My personal experience is of vascular dementia, an aunt and uncle both have it. My uncle could carry on a perfectly rational discussion with people until the day he die, it was just he had lost his long and short term memory so what ever we talked about had to be in the present. His care home had a beautiful garden and he enjoyed the garden and the birds that came to it and we would have very pleasant conversations about what we could see. He was happy and content to the end. My aunt seems happy and content where she lives. She watches life around her in the day room, she still has a bit of memory and she always recognises me when I arrive. Her main problem is physical frailty, she is 96, and is too frail to walk anymore.

I don't want to disappoint Katie but I think I'm just as much full of life and fun as I was at 20 - possibly more so because I don't take myself so seriously now.

Is she going to bash Terry Pratchett over the head with a hammer herself, or will she get some one else to do it? It's terrible the way he keeps cluttering the place up, writing books.

Actually Riverwalk I don't want to 'cop out' of anything. You can say 'kill' if you want to.

And doesn't it happen sometimes when people are dying in pain that physicians administer a lethal dose of morphine? I suppose that could be referred to as 'killing' as well.

But someone with severe dementia would not be able to feed themselves, so maybe I'd say withdraw whatever help was being given to me to keep me alive.

Anybody who does not want to make those kind of arrangements wouldn't have to.

Since I probably would not be in a position to get myself over to Sweden or whatever, a physician. Or if the law is ever changed, someone official (like Digitas) who I could form a prior contract with when I was still compos mentis.

But really, I can't come up with a sound answer to such a complex problem in five minutes!

petallus euphemisms such as 'being assisted to die' are a bit of a cop-out I think.

What you're really saying is if you should become demented you want someone to kill you.

And who would you like to perform the act?

I've been there, petallus so I agree with you.

I wouldn't be surprised if Katie Hopkins gets picked for a stint in I'm a Celebrity come November.

If she is, I might even watch it.

I'm not sure exactly what Katie Hopkins said because I cannot access the original article but if, as seems likely from this thread, she said people over 60 are a nuisance to society and a drain on the young and should be eliminated, well, obviously I don't agree with that.

Well yes, Riverwalk, I suppose that is one of the problems with dementia, the body can go on and on long after the mind has 'gone'.

That's what I don't want to happen to me. I would like to be able to write something in my will about it with a view to being assisted to die when I got to a certain stage.

petallus I'm sure that everyone hates the idea of spending years with dementia, but dementia patients are not 'being kept alive' ...... it's just that they're not killed-off.

Forgive me for being serious on a thread which started off as an outrage fest and has now become a bit of a laugh but ....

Isn't there anybody else out there who hates the idea of spending years with dementia (a very distressing situation for some and who would not wish one's children to have to cope with such a situation (even if they would be willing to do so)?

I have known people who have been tested to the limit when one of their nearest and dearest was unfortunate enough to get alzheimers disease. Spouses can become suicidal.

And what is the point of hanging around for years if the dementia is severe?

I think many people do dread being kept alive under such circumstances.

merlot

When the unfortunate over sixties have shuffled off because no one will resuscitate them and you can't get round the garden centre without tripping over bodies, AgeUK will have to rebrand itself as MiddleAgeUK.

Yep maybe club together and send her to Switzerland with a one way ticket.

Well, I went down and visited my fashion accessory this morning. She seemed tired so said little but I reminisced and she did now and then say 'I do vaguely remember'. But, as one of the carers said, she was clearly listening and laughed when I told her a story about DGS.I enjoy my visits to her, even though it is a bit of a journey. I will miss them when they stop, which they will inevitably.

I worked as a volunteer Home Advisor with Age UK for 10 years and I thoroughly enjoyed the company of the many people I met doing that work. Many had had such interesting lives. One I remember was in the navy during WW2, on an escort ship for the Arctic convoys, anotherat the siege of Mont Cassini, one lady told me about growing up on a farm I knew in the 1920s. I became close to several of them and remember them with affection. I only met one whom I actively disliked.

I laughed out loud at her comment, 'Thanks to the D Day veterans, the elderly are now in fashion.'

So the next time you see somebody struggling to steer an elderly relative around Tesco, they're not gritting their teeth but proudly showing off their latest fashion accessory.

I saw her on The Apprentice. That was the start of her show-biz career.

Well, I am 70. DF made it to 92, still driving long distances and still working actively on the committee of three local organisations. Giving more to the community at 92 than she is at 39.

Personally, I had never heard of her before this thread.