Immigration: the reality

Agree Mamie- just depends where you are in France or Spain. Multicultural society can work and work very well- but it takes huge effort from both sides. 'Integration' does require learning the language and a respect for the local culture- but it does not require losing your own and your roots either. My point was- and again I perhaps put it badly- that this is no different for foreigners, immigrants or those who call themselves 'expat'. Anno, I agree about expats being there temporarily and not to settle- but when does an expat stop being an expat? And even expats can adapt and make an effort to learn the language- not talking aobut the subjunctive backwards here- but basic communicative language. Why it seems OK for large groups of Brits not to integrate at all or learn the language- and at the same time say they left 'Blighty' because of the ruddy foreigners- beats me totally.

Interesting number about your area.It's hard to see how things can work out really, if the jobs are not there.
annee yes, culture clash isn't it not racism.When my DD2 had a baby some years ago, she got hardly a wink of sleep from some foreign families who insisted on staying the night, even though we were all told to go away until the morning [and she had a really traumatic birth as well.]It's up to nurses to enforce [by use of porters if they have to] these rules, which are there for the benefit of the patients, not the visitors. As it is, visitors seem to be there at all ours, hardly any privacy for patients, especially if they are breast feeding, or are really unwell[which you kind of expect..... in a hospital.]
All immigrants who live here have to abide by our rules, and allowing them to carry on regardless [ a good Carry-On film!] does nothing for society as a whole.

Another experience of culture clash.
My sister had a complicated hip operation in Stanmore Hospital.
One of the patients had her husband with her Day and Night.(apparently it was their Religion)
The disturbance in the night i.e. Husband in and out to have a fag, and get drinks and food. You can imagine how difficult it was to sleep.
My Sister complained to a Nurse, and was told that they did not know how to deal with it. They told him it was against the rules, but he insisted on staying.

number that is an interesting perspective. I wonder in the NHS if they re-zoned. That happened once in MK when it was expanding rapidly. The GPs were pressured to shift out of area patients across to the GP surgeries in the new areas to get a redistribution. I moved nearer to my GP but was pressured into moving because i was no longer officially in their designated area.
My impression is that the vast majority of immigrants go where they can get proper jobs and there are few problems. But talk to your Hungarian waitress and she turns out to have a good degree.
In some part of E Anglia the work opportunities are casual and unskilled and if people don't go home after the work ends then inevitable problems are going to arise.
In large parts of USA the agriculture is totally dependent on Mexicans doing the same kind of casual labour. But their status is illegal and that leads to all kinds of problems - for the workers, in the main. The Americans like their cheap fruit and veg but they don't want to look after the workers at all or let them stay permanently. But if country gets to certain level of affluence they are going to have to get their casual fruit-pickers etc from somewhere, because there is not a pool of rural poor who will do it.
Do E Londoners still go out hop picking or is it now automated or something?

The young couple who run our local paper-cum-everything-shop are Muslim. She was born and bred here and hubby came over to marry. He's had to learn English PDQ and she is definitely in charge.

My impression round here is that most of the British who wanted to live in an ex-pat ghetto have gone back home. Maybe because there were fewer of them here in this bit of Normandy in the first place than in places like Dordogneshire, but now most people I know speak French and are pretty well integrated into their communities, helping in libraries, serving on village committees, teaching English to the twinning society etc. It could just be that I always avoided the other sort of ex-pat anyway, but I really don't think they have lasted long here. I think the key has always been to speak the language, make an effort, don't try to overwhelm and give it time.
The only time I have heard an anti English comment was from a very drunk man in Lidl's and I gave him a frosty glare, said something like "how charming" in French and he apologised.
I do think people who go abroad on short-term contracts for work are less likely to learn the language or get involved though. The French in London have their patisseries, schools and banks, don't they?

Rosesarered, re services here, some of the doctors were told to offload some of their established patients to make room for them to take on immigrant patients, how that worked out for the abandoned patients I don`t know. The schools have to have extra classes, especially the primary schools, to cope with the growing number of E.European children, speaking several different languages. When in town, it`s unusual these days to hear English voices. When my grandson was at nursery school, his best friend was a little Latvian boy, but you`d never have known it, he spoke perfect English, even at 3 years of age. His mum told me "when we`re at home, we speak Latvian, when we are out we speak English", if only they were all like that.
I hope my posts don`t make me come across as anti immigrants, I`m just anti the ones who cause trouble, and don`t attempt to blend in and abide by the rules.

I've read through all of this and what it shows is that there are lots of realities to immigration, some good some bad.
I do think that the government is winning with its demonisation of immigrants, which is a shame.

A couple of years ago my DD had a muslim and his wife doing research in her laboratory. I can't remember which country they had come from but the man had his wife running around doing most of the work for him and he had huge problems with DD because he just couldn't cope with a woman being in charge and telling him what to do. They didn't last very long!

There are a lot of children at our local school who have Eastern European mothers, although they mostly seem to have English fathers and speak good English. DS's girlfriend is Hungarian and was working until she had the baby. They have a lot of Hungarian friends who are all working here. I buy my Pet Supplies from a nice Slovakian girl who has been here for 16 years and speaks fluent English. As I have mentioned on other threads DH's grandfather was an Italian immigrant, my grandfather was an Irish immigrant and our SiL is an American - sometimes we hardly feel English at all!

janerowena- thanks for that. Most of us will remember the series 'Auf Wiedersehen Pet' with working 'gangs' of Geordies working, often on the black, in Germany.

I had a vision then of a GNetter standing firm in her sensible shoes, being whisked into a revolving door going backwards... I think I've had too much sun (not Sun, please note - never got a free one)!

Michael Howard (Tory lord) is half Romanian (and half Welsh).

I like 'Dougies'. ROFL

What are Douglas people called? - I couldn't possibly say, I'm far too ladylike

We have to stand firm against it otherwise society will be going backwards again.

I agree, that sort of behaviour has nothing to do with race - it's to do with culture.

It's quite worrying that misogynistic practices seem to be creeping back into the UK by the back door, so to speak, after all women have gone through over the years to achieve a kind of equality with men!

When in Douglas, Holly, as they say! What are Douglas people called?

Douglashians, Douglasers, Douglasonians, Dougies

Sorry I should have added a very similar experience to HollyDaze too.

When in Rome and all that.

I wasn't in Rome rosequartz - I was in Douglas. I'm glad I wasn't on my own though!

Welcome anneey, I had a similar experience a couple of years ago when I was still working, in an FE college. Some young male asylum seekers were waiting in a corridor for a class. All were sitting on the floor, legs stretched out. As I walked towards them, I walk with one crutch, none of them moved their legs, to carry on walking I would have had to have picked my way through their legs. I stood and waited and after a while they did grudgingly move their legs out of the way. I think it was less of a race issue and more sadly an issue of how some cultures still view women.

You should have been two steps behind, HollyDaze.

When in Rome and all that.

HollyDaze that's because you were only a woman getting in their way.

That is exactly the impression I got rosesarered - goodness knows what they thought of my son as he was carrying all the shopping!

That's right. People will get resentful if they can't get doctor's appointments, their children are in overcrowded classrooms, there is not enough housing etc.

Yes, I knew you meant that the two men on the bus were exceptions, rosequartz. That's why I said that maybe the immigrants you know are exceptions (meant in a speculative way).

Yes, it may all settle down eventually, but a lot depends on the number of immigrants coming in, of whatever race, colour etc. etc. Things can't just 'settle down' if the infrastructure can't cope.

Well, Ana, there are not that many immigrants in the small town where I live, so I can only speak from experience of those I have met who work in jobs where I have come across them, eg hospitality, shops, personal car cleaning, and they have all been very pleasant because that should be (but isn't always I find) part of the job description.

The other immigrants I know are ones who were neighbours/friends who arrived before the huge influx of recent years.

I do see what anneey is trying to say about being overwhelmed, about it not feeling like her familiar city any more.
When I say 'I think they were exceptions' I meant the two young men who were pretending not to realise they were in disabled seats. Other passengers were obviously trying to help her.

I have said before that I think it often takes at least a generation of children going to school, speaking the language and making friends before it all settles down into a more mixed society.