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EU - in or out?

(185 Posts)
Mishap Mon 07-Jul-14 14:24:22

Just reading a book about this on my Kindle. I had no idea the huge sums of money involved - and the things it is spent on are making my eyebrows curl! The saga of successive PMs trying to hold back the tide of EU encroachment is quite fascinating - it seems to be a club we have never really been in - just tinkered around at the edges and spent loads-a-dosh on.

Apparently, by the end of the book, there is a cost/benefit analysis and I look forward to this. I have no idea which side I will come down on, but at the moment it seems to me that the goal of unity and peace is more likely to be fostered by being out, as no-one in the club seems to agree about anything very much. And we all know about how violence is more common in family settings.

I just thought I should find out a bit more detail if the much-vaunted referendum ever happens, so I will vote on the basis of some knowledge rather than none.

petra Mon 07-Jul-14 16:20:19

Out out out. I've never wanted to belong to it. I even go as far as not wanting the channel tunnel.
And as for the old chestnut about loosing trade, there's a whole world out there wanting our quality products.

grumppa Mon 07-Jul-14 16:28:24

In, in, in. I didn't spend years putting the case for my industry to our competitors in Europe and to the Europen Commission for my efforts to be thrown away by Little Englanders.

Duchessofherts Mon 07-Jul-14 19:04:25

Out, out, out. It is truly ludicrous to suggest that we would lose any trade if we were OUT!! Europe wants our trade. They trade with many other countries that are not in the EU. They would continue to trade as before. The amount of money that we pay in is out of all proportion to any benefits that we get out. The ridiculous rules and regulations that EU jobsworths churn out (which by the way, most of our continental cousins ha! ignore) have ruined many a business in the uk.
To think of the wars we have fought and the men that have died to preserve our we are simply handing it over on a plate. And the sad thing is that the greater percentage of the population don't know and don't care.

whitewave Mon 07-Jul-14 19:33:24

You wouldn't believe it but one of the areas I covered whilst reading for my degree was the Common Market (as it was then named) I can hardly remember a thing about it but do remember finding out all sorts of stuff - something like that would be useful if we are going into a referendum.

We need objective facts in order to make up our minds because what is the point of a referendum if we don't know what we are voting for.

rosequartz Mon 07-Jul-14 19:56:45

Why 'Little Englanders'? I do dislike that phrase, what about those of us who live in the rest of the UK (Scotland, of course, may have gone its own way by then). Don't we have any say or thoughts on the subject? And why should 'Little Englander' be used as a derogatory term, as if being English and proud of that is something of which to be ashamed?

Trade agreements are good, United States of Europe is another matter altogether. I still haven't worked out how I would vote, need to go into it a lot more like Mishap, but name-calling is not going to add anything to the debate.

jinglbellsfrocks Mon 07-Jul-14 20:29:40

We must stay in. It would be disastrous for trading if we came out. And we would probably lose a large part of our finance industry if the traders moved elsewhere.

I think DC is doing well in trying to tweak the rules a bit.

I really hope there is no referendum. Too many narrow minded people could vote to come out without any really good reason.

jinglbellsfrocks Mon 07-Jul-14 20:30:45

Yes. Exactly Grumppa - "Little Englanders". hmm

jinglbellsfrocks Mon 07-Jul-14 20:35:18

It is not name calling. hmm

It's a way of describing a certain section of the population who are dyed in the wool, old fashioned, narrow minded, non-thinking, Daily Mail reading, ...well... little Englanders! hmm

penguinpaperback Mon 07-Jul-14 20:44:45

We should, I think, have a referendum as the EU as it is now is far removed from the Common Market of years ago.
At the moment I would vote to leave the EU.

Ana Mon 07-Jul-14 20:47:54

Rubbish jingl! As rosequartz says, we don't all live in England (at least not in the south!) and it's a patronising expression. How do you know it would be disastrous for trading if we came out? What evidence can you produce to prove that?

durhamjen Mon 07-Jul-14 21:20:35

What evidence can you produce for the opposite, Ana?
I do not live in the south of England. I want us to stay in.

Ana Mon 07-Jul-14 21:27:34

I don't claim to have evidence to prove the opposite, durhamjen.

I was asking jingl why she was so adamant that an OUT vote would be disastrous for trading.

HollyDaze Mon 07-Jul-14 21:31:10

It wouldn't be disastrous for trading if the UK left the EU - I am amazed that people actually believe this; it's as if they believe that the rest of the world will refuse to trade which, of course, is an absolute nonsense. It is nothing more than propaganda from people who have a personal, vested interest in staying in that would harm them, personally, if the UK were to leave. It doesn't equate that it would be negative for everyone else. Makes you wonder how Britain managed to trade before the birth of the EU doesn't it hmm

HollyDaze Mon 07-Jul-14 21:34:54

For anyone interested, this is an American take on 'Why has Europe's economy done worse than the US?'

'The eurozone experience shows what can happen when people lose control over their government's economic policies'

durhamjen Mon 07-Jul-14 21:51:28

The strange thing is that people are saying the opposite for Scotland.
They say that it will be disastrous for Scotland's trade if they came out of the UK, yet it wouldn't be disastrous for the UK if it came out of Europe.
It doesn't make sense.

I have often thought that the US is a bit like the Eurozone. All states have the same currency, but they can make up many of their laws.

HollyDaze Mon 07-Jul-14 21:57:37

It may be that as Scotland is not an independent country already, it would have to go through sorting everything out and be ready to stand on its own two feet (so to speak) quite quckly and with nothing to fall back on. Britain already stood on its own two feet and was a country in its own right. Many believe that the UK has given up that right and Cameron is paying lip service to the voters by stating he wants out of the EU - he is, apparently, a confirmed pro-Europe politician. He is unlikely to be Party leader again (if back benchers complaints are anything to go by) so I'm not sure how likely it is that he would be PM again - and the offer all hinged on that proviso didn't it!

jinglbellsfrocks Mon 07-Jul-14 22:07:12

Ana We wouldn't have access to EU markets as they'd impose import tarrifs on our exports. Small businesses would suffer.

Factories would close as foreign investors would shove off to Europe.

We would lose a huge amount of revenue from the big investment banks leaving London. Finance is our main lucrative-via-taxes industry.

That's just some of it.

feetlebaum Mon 07-Jul-14 22:42:28

I understand three million jobs here depend on the EU...

Ana Mon 07-Jul-14 22:42:55

Thank you for your response, jingl - over to you HollyDaze! (and anyone else, of course, of either persuasion).

Ana Mon 07-Jul-14 22:45:43

You 'understand' that, feetlebaum? Why? Who told you?

jinglbellsfrocks Mon 07-Jul-14 22:47:56

Mr Nissan said so Ana.

jinglbellsfrocks Mon 07-Jul-14 22:48:28

Your turn Ana. #bossyboots

jinglbellsfrocks Mon 07-Jul-14 22:49:18

Meanwhile, I've got a book to read and a bed that is calling.


gillybob Mon 07-Jul-14 22:54:23

It would be a disaster for the North East if we pulled out of the EU as there are so many people here who rely on Nissan (who have made their position very plain) for direct and indirect employment. Many of the small businesses in the area are first/second/third tier suppliers to Nissan and the knock on effect of them pulling out of the UK would be devastating.

Having said that I do believe that DC's intentions are not that we leave the EU but that we fight to regain/retain control of our country and not live and work under the thumb of the rest of Europe.