Ukrainan Crash

and says a lot about the people who shot the plane down, and then continued to behave badly.

Quite. It would appear that human life is viewed as incredibly cheap and worthless to some. I wonder how they would have felt had it been their deceased relatives that were treated that way ...

I'm relieved to read the UN has passed the resolution, and hope this makes some difference.
I agree with those who have criticised the way in which the bodies,and their belongings, have been treated. It's inhuman, and says a lot about the people who shot the plane down, and then continued to behave badly.

That's an obvious statement but the fact the bodies were, for days in some cases, left out in the open, in sweltering heat and then laid on top of other bodies will have created further and uneccessary deterioration for both forensics and the return of a loved one to a family. Totally flies in the face of decency to fellow human beings.

The bodies, even those intact, would have been in a dreadful state as soon as the catastrophe happened.

Desperately sad, the bodies will be in a dreadful state by now.

If anybody is interested it has been passed in the UN.

They MIGHT start to get somewhere at least now.

It will be interesting to see what the Australian Resolution being put forward to the UN tonight will bring forth.

Will Russia dare to veto it? Will China back Russia as usual?

OK the Pro Russian Fighters have put bodies on a train, reportedly to be repatriated by the Dutch but the site of the black bags not even respectfully lined up continues to sum up they have no basic value for human life or the dead. They have just prolonged the view they are afraid of the truth being known by delaying the investigation and ripping the site apart making it an impossibility to get to the truth.

Shame on them.

This is obviously a total tragedy and should never have happened but it has and all eyes are now on Putin.

It is not just the West, it is not just Europe, it is not just America that should be spoken of as the whole world is watching and the fatalities crossed all boundaries. The UN should be doing more and for once they should 'tell' Russia enough is enough. Putin will take no notice but his stance will weaken him on the world stage and his allies such as China just for once might not back him, as is the norm, hopefully diffusing his power somewhat. The danger there of course he comes out fighting as he has a messiah complex and that is why he has to be dealt with by his allies alongside his perceived enemies. If the likes of China back Russia over this then the stakes are really high and quite frightening .

As for America I would think they and possibly other countries have full knowledge of where the missile was fired from, what missiles were in the area and who fired them. They probably would not disclose their knowledge thus far as they would be admitting using covert surveillance but it would only be stating the bleeding obvious. It would or could however raise the stakes to the detriment of any hope of finding a peaceful solution. I would hazard a guess all the 'backroom chat' will never be known to the likes of us for quite some time to come.

Germany has to be stronger in it's views of this as well. It has tried hard to sit on the fence over Ukraine from the start, to the point it has by now got a splinter in it's bum, it can't keep wriggling. It will be interesting to see how strong Angela Merkel really is.

I absolutely agree shabby, but lets face it 'pigs might fly'!!! Fifa stands to make millions with this world cup event and you don't honestly think that a couple of hundred murdered passengers are going to stop that happening! They'll excuse themselves by saying that you can't mix sport and politics. Murdered people don't stand a chance against money!!!!!

Top article by Ron Liddle in today's Sunday Times re boycotting the 2018 Football World Cup in protest of recent events.

As RL says 'Tyrants love their big international sporting events; these tournaments are a means of legitimising and even normalising vile regimes — as we saw, of course, with the 1936 Olympic Games in Germany'.

Never usually agree with anything that Ron Liddle has to say but in my opinion he has hit spot with this piece.

www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/Columns/article1436434.ece

Amen to that HollyDaze.

It's okay nigglynellie - if people continue not to address me by name, I am happy to do the same to them (even if it does cause confusion).

Putin will do whatever he wants and there's not much that we can do about that. We will just have to hope that the officials who can try and help to sort it out are successful.

Sorry, thought your were! On Newsnight the other day(?!) when the annexing of The Crimea was brought up and the fact that Ukraine should have held any referendum bearing in mind it is their territory, the Russian chap just shrugged his shoulders, which I think tells us the mindset! As everyone says though, what can you do? just let it go and hope for the best!

I haven't referred to your post nigglynellie

I don't think there is much to prejudge over the annexing of The Crimea! seems pretty straight forward to me!

Oh dear, some also clearly have the inability to understand the difference between not wanting to prejudge a situation until all the facts are known (as opposed to assumed) - <shakes head sadly>

As I understand it, in 1994 Ukraine agreed to give up it's nuclear weapons in return for promise from the U.S and Russia not to use force or military action against the new independent state. Putin clearly repudiated that agreement with the annexing of The Crimea!! and has been doing so by back door methods ever since. That promise was clearly worthless on both fronts, sadly more fool the Ukrainians to believe it, except that a signed agreement would probably have been just as worthless!

Putin can laugh all he wishes - that is not what matters.
Making mature and intelligent decisions is what matters. We should not worry about what this man thinks, only what is the right thing to do.

Maybe, just maybe a lot of people are extremely worried about what has happened and it may stop influential governments from arming people in other parts of the world for their own agenda. I'm not defending the Russians in any way but I can't believe that the West don't do the same thing. I very much doubt that people are pussyfooting around; they just don't want another Bay of Pigs scenario.

Tell that to Putin and watch him laugh at us!!!!

I don't think that biding our time and truly thinking through the consequences of any actions that the west might take is pussyfooting around. We must avoid knee-jerk reactions and be clear what the aims and likely consequences might be of anything that might be done.

It is a real Catch 22, but the stakes are very high.

It is a terrible dilemma! Of course we can't possibly risk WW3, so the only answer is to pander to, pussyfoot round, put up with endless provocation by putting on a brave face, in the hope that somehow by example, these wild people will suddenly see the error of their ways!!! A forlorn hope I'm afraid.

It is shocking in the extreme.

But also so so so dangerous- and could lead to terrible consequences.
Putin knows totally that Europe does not have the 'appetite' nor the means to fight him- and are terrified (so rightly) of taking measures that could lead to WW3. I shudder to think of the consequences of this cold war, which is getting warmer by the minute.

Well yes they could have been drunk on drugs, mad, or just plain wicked, and their behaviour since would lead one to believe that they were probably all of those things! It would now appear that bodies have been moved (where?!) evidence obviously removed covered up, and the investigators will only be allowed in as and when the cover over up is completed! It really is a shocking business and perhaps a wakeup call to the West as to exactly what we are dealing with when coping with Russia and her allies; Appealing to their consciences or better natures just doesn't cut any ice at all, I'm afraid they view that as a sign of weakness. Sadly the only language understood is the barrel of a gun and the sooner we understand that then perhaps the sooner we can view things in a more realistic light and be very wary.

Was reading about this in the paper yesterday. It is truly awful but was particularly upset by the story of 3 siblings killed with their grandfather who was taking them back to school whiLst their parents stayed in Holland for 2 days extra holiday? Now one of the parents has lost their father and they have lost all their children. As someone who has lost one child and experienced the devastation of this ( whichever never goes away) I felt so much for those parents how will they ever live with the consequences of their decision which was a perfectly normal one to make. In the midst of the political comment it is the tragedy of the families which is most poignant. Never mind the research knowledge of all the AIDS experts who were killed. That's a lost to mankind by itself.