Assisted dying

Absolutely, and we have discussed this at great length here before Fiytzyfitz- I wish the Dying with Dignity campaign well- and hope friends in the UK will soon have the choice I have here in Switzerland.

I do envy you granjura. I do hope that we will have the choice in this country very soon.

The secondary effect of some pain relief such as an increase in morphine is that a person dies. This is not the primary effect which was to make a persons last hours or days pain free. BUT is this assisted dying!
Before Shipman many a family doctor, whilst relieving the suffering of a person by increasing the morphine knew that the increase would likely kill them.

I don't want a choice. Eleven years ago I was diagnosed with breast cancer that had already spread to my bones. I was just into my 40's. Somehow I am still here albeit on treatment including some long stints with chemotherapy which unfortunately left me with serious heart failure this Spring. But some months on and I am pain free, have given up some heavy duty pain killers I was on, walking again, I was in a wheelchair in May. If you saw me in Sainsburys you would not have an inkling I was ill. Through the internet I have met up with, in real life other women, in their 30's through to their late 50's all with stage 4 breast cancer. All bar one lady wanted to live for as long as possible. Once stage 4 many of those women had to fight for proactive treatment, trials, mastectomies....the horse has already bolted scenario, no point in an operation. The assisted dying bill would not have helped those who are worried they might be too incapacitated to take a pill as I understand it was particularly for terminal cancer patients. Talking to others again about the bill, we are considered terminal but in my case I have been considered this for years, no-one was in favour. A couple of women were already feeling guilty of becoming burdens on their family. So many friends have died but when they have chosen, along with consultations with their Oncologists, when treatments have been exhausted or quality of life over quantity have been taken into account. Hospices have been chosen along with pain relief plans.
I shall probably wish I hadn't shared so much here, but Lord Falconer's bill is, I think, ill thought out. There are many thousands of cancer patients the bill is open to abuse by family members thinking for a vulnerable patient.

I appreciate what you're saying, penguinpaperback, but I can't share your view that the bill would pave the way for vast numbers of relatives deciding that their old granny should be assisted to die so they can benefit from her estate. It wouldn't work that way.

As for hospice care and pain relief, yes it may work for some, but there are too many horror stories of terminally ill people having to wait until their pain is unbearable before it's time for the prescribed dose of painkiller.

Until medical staff get that right, I'm certainly in favour of assisted dying.

And I'd add that I think it should be a human rights issue. Why should the method of my dying, if I'm terminally ill, in pain and sick of living be decided by anyone else but me?

I am glad you have shared, Penguin, thank you. I have not been in your situation, but I think I would feel as you do.
I was listening to the debate on You and Yours today, and Prof Rob George, Consultant in Palliative Care at Kings College Hospital, was saying that if passed, the bill would be unworkable, because firstly doctors cannot accurately predict that someone has only 6 months to live. I know someone who was told 10 years ago that she had a few months to live, and she is alive and well today.
Secondly because most doctors want to care for patients and ease their suffering, but do not want to kill them.
He felt that if the bill was ever made law there would have to be complete separation between any service which provided assisted suicide, and the rest of the NHS.
I hope so. I would have no trust in any doctor who supported assisted suicide.

Not even during the last few pain-racked days of a dying person's life, janeainsworth?

Well, let's all hope we die peacefully in our sleep without having to worry about that sort of thing...

My mother always insisted that she wanted to be kept alive at any cost but she changed her mind towards the end when the cancer really took hold but no pain relief was strong enough to work. At least no pain relief that she could have that wouldn't have killed her or wasn't too expensive.

I agree that the bill hasn't been properly thought through but at least it's a first step and there's a long way for it to go yet and many, many amendments.

I think that for people with horrible things like motor neurone disease just knowing that the option to end it all is there would be a great comfort.

Sorry I just wanted to add a concern and then I will leave the thread as it's a subject I'm too wrapped up in. But the Liverpool Care Pathway is now being phased out after the news some NHS trusts were rewarded financially by the number of patients who had been put onto the pathway. I find that financial reward rather worrying.

I heard the "You and Yours" discussion as well. It aired a lot of views about both sides of the arguments. A very good program which appears to be available on "listen again" On on BBC radio 4.

Follow this link.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b049yhd1

There was an excellent discussion on The Moral Maze a couple of days ago with dry well informed and thoughtful speakers.

I have to say I'm inclined to Jane Ainsworth's view but every timei hear a good reason on either side I find my mind changing.

Very. Not dry.

I want the choice for myself because I want to be able to end pain at the time of my choosing. It's all very well to say a law wouldn't work. Facts have proved that view mistaken. An assisted dying law has been in place and working without abuse for well over a decade in Oregon. Very few people actually choose to use the option but it is there for those who've had enough and want to end their own suffering. It is not about doctors killing people. It is about doctors helping people to end their own suffering. Being a doctor is not just about keeping people alive. It's about reducing suffering. Some suffering can only be 'reduced' by death. There have been plenty of high profile cases in the news lately.

Only the patient chooses when and if. No-one else. Doctors do not choose to kill people. People choose to end their own lives. Why shouldn't they?

My life. My choice.

I agree Bags My life, my choice.

And as for 'the bill hasn't been thought through enough' that keeps being trotted out by some and parroted by others, I have read the bill and I don't see that at all.

I'd be interested to know what exactly people mean by this. There are safeguards enough in place as far as I can see, or have I missed something?

I'm not sure the Liverpool Pathway was anything like assisted dying. Was it really a choice? Patients seemed to be put on it when they were in no condition to decide and relatives weren't always kept in the picture. The payments too seem to have caused a problem.

I agree with Bags - my life, my choice. I'm not a religious person who believes suicide is a sin so for me assisted dying, properly regulated, would be an option I would like. I may (hopefully) never need to use that option, but to have it available would mean I would be less likely to use it. A security blanket there, just in case.

I know of doctors who have experienced the anguish of watching a patient die in pain and, despite their pleas for help to end it, been unable to stop their suffering. Palliative care isn't always what it's cracked up to be. The painkillers don't always work as they should or aren't used sufficiently because of the cost.

My mum who died last year at 98 was put on the Liverpool pathway. Our doctor rang me to ask me if this is what we wanted and explained that they give care to the patient and make them comfortable. My mum was in a care home and they had nurses coming in throughout the day checking on her and making her comfortable. She died very peacefully and I was happy to have made that decision and felt it was the way she would have wanted to go.

I'm sure you acted in the way you thought best for your mother sherish and I think your mother probably died, peacefully, of old age?

I think we are talking about those whose illness is painful and likely to lead to an undignified end. There have been many high profile cases in the papers recently, many of them relatively young.

Yes, NFK, the Liverpool pathway is not like assisted dying because it is still legal, I think, and assisted dying is not.
My husband died thirty months ago yesterday on the Liverpool pathway.
He was involved, the family were involved, even visiting friends were asked their opinion. He was at home, and we had so many carers and nurses coming in and out of the house that we did not have time to learn all their names.
He was 65 years old and had a brain tumour.
The choice he had then was to stop eating and drinking, or to ask me to give him something to eat or drink. If he could have asked for a lethal dose of drugs, he would have done. But for the first time in 15 years he was not in pain so did not have morphine although it was available for him. He just told the GP that he had had enough.

janeainsworth, we obviously do not agree at all on this subject (and that is fine). Personally, for me it would be totally the other way round re:
' I would have no trust in any doctor who supported assisted suicide.'
Any doctor who would not understand the despair of terminal illness, especially some like motor-neurone, where a person chokes slowly to death- would seriously worry me and lead to distrust through their lack of empathy and what I, personally, would want to happen in such a case.

I feel totally confident with the checks and safeguards re the Swiss Exit system. I indeed fully support the current fight to allow advance directives, with previously clearly set and approved set of criteria- for those who are terrified of advanced Alzheimers and senile dementia- which is legally still illegal here in Switzerland. My mil who was hugely intelligent was terrified of Alzheimers- and used to say 'if that ever happens to me, you will snuff me out of it won't you- I just can't bear to even think of being 'like that''. The last 2 years of her life were just awful, and her actions and behaviour, until she was so drugged up to the eye balls that she turned into a zombie- would have upset her beyond belief. None of us in the family who witnessed her slow and terrible demise, would ever want to go through this- EVER.

Which with the current laws would mean having to commit suicide at the first signs of the disease- which is a shame as the first few years she was doolally but still enjoyed life and visits very much.

We should respect each other's choices and make sure the Law enables us all to make said choice, without fear.

granjura I do think that doctors who specialise in palliative care understand the despair of terminal illness. Just because a doctor doesn't agree with assisted suicide doesn't mean that they have no compassion. It just takes a different form.
I just wish there were more research into palliative care, and more funds to provide it for all who need it.

I wasn't going to post any more on this subject, since as you say, we all have our differing views. I just felt that penguin was very brave to post what she did and wanted to support her.

Hillary Benn made a very good point on Any Questions on Radio 4. He said that we do have assisted suicide in this country, but only for those who have the funds to travel, with family if wanted, to Switzerland.

I understand what you mean jane- and I agree in many ways. I would not distrust the wonderful doctors who work in palliative care- they do an amazing job. But if I asked for help in dire circumstances, and the doctor said 'you have to live, come what may- because I do not agree with you' - It would truly shake my trust and be a huge disappointment that s/he can't understand that this is MY choice. As a societe we have to ensure that we give access to sick and disabled people the same right and choices as fit and healthy ones. Suicide is available for all who are fit enough to avail themselves of such- so why not enable those who do not? Any doctor should of course have the right to say they won't help- as long as they then help the patient to find someone else. I knew 2 catholic gyneacologists who refused to do any abortions- colleagues respected that- although were at times pretty fed up they had to do more than their fair share due to the others refusing.

As for Switzerland and Dignitas- it is of course the only choice for Brits who want to die- but it should not be that way. Why do they have to go abroad, with all the physical, mental and emotional stress involved- to die away from their home, friends, family, pets, garden. in a flat on an industrial estate- too early, to ensure they don't get too unwell and unable to travel.
Nasty, cruel and inhumane.

Granjura Just to be clear, Lord Falconer's Bill does not extend to those who are sick, in pain, demented or disabled, but only to those who have been told they have less than six months to live.