Housing Benefit for under 25s

durham please re-read our posts and tell me if you still think we chose to move. Your propensity to interpret things according to your own views amazes me. It makes it hard for me to take anything you say seriously when you misinterpret so much.

Jess yes life changes but we can only measure today based on history and our own observations.

One of the reasons there is a shortage of housing is that so many couples split up and need smaller cheaper accommodation than if they stayed together. It will take many years to change our housing stock to accommodate this.

durham- yes, I chose to come and study in London a long way from home. But after that there was no choice about moving for OH's job- in many jobs/professions, moving around regularly is NOT an option, but the only way to progress, I can assure you. And then, having lived in 2 different locations in the Midlands (Newcastle-u-Lyme and East Leics)- there was absolutely NO wyy we could have moved back to London or Surrey and be able to afford any kind of home for the children to grow up in. So we did what we had to and had to cope without any family support, etc. Hard, very hard at times- as a young foreign mum with 2 young children and an OH working VERY long hours, nights and week-ends- I felt bereft at times. But in the end, we coped and made it work, somehow.

And than you again and again to Betty next door who took us and the kids under her wings- I shall be forever grateful.

granjura your post brings it all back to me, it was hard at the time, very hard. In the longer term though it was good for us all.

You all seem to be talking about choosing to move.
No djen we didn't choose to move. There was absolutely no work where we lived so after months of 'dole' and strenuous efforts to find work we had to move to somewhere where we knew no-one and I absolutely did not want to go. We settled in and made friends in time.
The next time we moved DC howled buckets at the very thought of leaving their friends, but settled down and made new friends after a while, as did we.
We have not lived near family for 35 years.

This thread seems to be going round in circles, bogged down in personal experiences that occurred under different economic conditions.

It does, JessM, but that is because the question of 'how would you feel if' keeps popping up, so we are relating our personal experiences and I am wondering why it is so different for today's younger generation.

petra

HollyDaze. You say you don't understand 'safe place to live' try and imagine being 18 and your drunken father is pointing a gun at you in the street. Then you would understand what it means to need a 'safe place to live'

At gunpoint! No-one said we were only talking about young adults having guns pointed at them.

I think it had already been agreed (across the board) that those in dangerous circumstances would be supported - isn't the thread about those who choose to live on their own but want the state to support them with housing and finance?

JessdM

This thread seems to be going round in circles, bogged down in personal experiences that occurred under different economic conditions.

I think the personal experience regarding my stepfather leaving an economy in Wales that was much, much worse than the economy in the UK at the moment - and him leaving his family, home and friends at the age of 14 to travel, alone, to a country he'd never even visited and stand on his own two feet, kind of puts many things into perspective (for me anyway) - I cannot begin to imagine the anxiety he must have felt and I doubt he was a special case. It made me feel such admiration for him. Did it help shape him as a person? I think it did - he was one of the kindest, most supportive, caring men I have ever met.

granjura i don't think the experience of people with highly valued professional qualifications sheds a lot of light on the situation of today's young people who don't have that advantage.
I'm sure we all have economic migrants somewhere in the family tree. Many in the past succeeded and there were many casualties that did not cope and ended up in a sorry state. It is the same today. If I was a 20 year old with few qualifications and no money how would I manage to get myself to a big city where I knew no one and get a job and somewhere to live.

In our family, so many from both sides over many generations have done just that- and moved not only area, but country and Continent- without any support whatsoever, to escape poverty, because they were slaves or to run away from Apartheid, and without qualifications of professions. And yes, it was 1000x harder for them than it was for us.

I have to agree Nonnie. Wanting to make the best of things, instead of bewailing our lot, most of us would use the word "choose", but I can assure durham that my parents did not want my brother and I to have so many schools that the only way to give us some stability was boarding school. I can remember my mother's tears (and mine) as I left for the UK from the country we were living in. She also knew getting away from the odd bomb and a certain amount of shooting was also a good thing but no, it was not what she would have chosen. She did not enjoy moving the family four times in one year either.

These may be personal anecdotes but they will be repeated time and time again. I could tell you of what we have had to do in the rest of the family in order to earn a living. No, we didn't all pursue the career we wanted, yes some miss family and their support because they have had to go so far away, no we didn't always get to work the hours we wanted or that were convenient to our families. As I say, this will be repeated in the majority of families all over the country.

However it is the first responsibility of all adults to put a roof over their heads and food on the table and most can only do that by working. It is not right to say: friends, neighbours and other tax payers I do not want to move so, although your taxes are only available because you were prepared to do so I would like you to pay for my choices. Nor is it fair to say friends, neighbours and other tax payers I do not want to do this particular job so, although your taxes are only available because you were prepared to do to work for many years at a job you hate please pay so I do not have to do so. And nor is it fair to say friends, neighbours and other tax payers I do not want to work all these hours so, would you mind working all hours God sends to earn enough to pay so I can work only 16, 24 or whatever and top up my "earnings" with your taxes.

Enough is enough. The current political parties do not know why they are losing votes to UKIP but, having been on other forums and listen to complaints of the so call "left behinds", one of the major things they complain about is the distortion of the "benefits" system. In their youth everyone of them would have thought National Insurance a good idea but now they just feel they get little when they need it but others live off the abuse of their compassion.

granjura i don't think the experience of people with highly valued professional qualifications sheds a lot of light on the situation of today's young people who don't have that advantage.

The arrogance of that remark astounds me. Presumably you feel you are in a position to understand.

jess I don't know how you know whether those of us who have moved and been successful in establishing new lives have highly valued professional qualifications or not. Please do not make such claims unless you know our circumstances. I can assure you that I know people with very few qualifications and one with not even one GCSE who have moved in order to get work and have been successful as a result. A narrow outlook must be stopping a lot of people from reaching their potential.

OH's family, after moving from SA to run away from apartheid, had to move so many times in the first few years in the UK, it is a miracle that he did achieve those 'highly value professional qualifications' you talk about- they certainly did not fall into his lap nor achieved via privilege, that is for sure. Same for his brother and sister.

We all think of Switzerland as a wealthy country- but my dad was the youngest of his family, and 2 of his brothers and 2 sisters, with many others from the village, were put on a train to Paris and then Le Havre, and ship tickets to New York, single... in the early 30s, as the family (dad had died falling from a roof he was repairing) could not support them. They had no qualifications of course, but they all did well in their own way. My aunt Nellie became Governess to the Roosevelt family.

Some of the most successful people in the world come from very modest backgrounds and had to face huge adversity. Adversity does seem to make some absolutely determined to survive and then to succeed. But yes, I do accept that some, and perhaps the majority even, might sink. I'd be hugely interested in doing research to show how determination and success in the face of adversity is passed through families and generations- and the reverse too.

granjura i don't think the experience of people with highly valued professional qualifications sheds a lot of light on the situation of today's young people who don't have that advantage.

JessM This is an astounding remark! No-one has mentioned having highly valued professional qualifications when we have discussed moving to other areas of the country or the world to seek work.
Being prepared to suffer hardship, get their hands dirty and get on with life (and other people) as best they could were all the qualifications many people needed to make a success of their lives.

We can pontificate, discuss, hypothesise all we like on this thread but when it comes down to it, people's personal and family experiences should not be discounted, they are an extremely valid part of the discussions. And an assumption that everyone has highly valued professional qualifications is just that - an assumption which sounds as if it comes from a very personal standpoint and unfortunately comes across as patronising even if the intention to do so was not there.

I have spent a fascinating half hour or so catching up with this post (Heaven knows when my ironing will get done!) I can agree with much that has been said on both sides, but must admit to having great sympathy with young people these days.Yes, there are shirkers and those who never intend to fend for themselves, but there are also many who are unable to do so from no fault of their own and will be caught up in these reforms if they go ahead.
I know there is no bottomless pot of money and cuts must be made, but no one can deny the inequality that exists in this country today and it does seem to be the most vulnerable and least articulate who are suffering the most.
From a personal point of view I was lucky enough to get a degree when grants paid for tuition and we worked in the holidays for spending money. This was possible because there were jobs to have. Today the so called " fall in unemployment" includes part time and self employed people as statistics, not so easy now.
I have also had to move several times in my life, mainly because of ex's job. I have also lived in grotty flats, was brought up in a council house and am now lucky enough to live in the country in a house we bought 30 years ago. Home is very important to me and moving in the past was heartbreaking. I feel for anyone who is forced to move for a job. Some enjoy the challenge, the likes of me need the security of a familiar place if possible.

Please do not assume from what I have said nannyfran that I do not believe the inequality in this country is iniquitous and that life is, in a different way to past generations, incredibly hard for young people. However, I do think differently difficult not more difficult.

I also think we do no one any favours paying young people to stay in poverty or in an area where they cannot get a job. That seems cruel to me and that sort of "benefits" system seems incredibly paternalistic.

I agree, Gracesgran, but the areas with jobs seem to be the ones with high rents and house prices so we might be paying benefits anyway! I don't have an answer but my sense of injustice has just grown. My DH informs me our local paper says our MP is the highest paid in the country, he seems to work as a barrister as well as for some company. The paper also says we have the lowest average pay rate in the UK. It seems we women aren't the only ones who can multi-task! Something wrong somewhere and I pray for someone to find a solution.
Politicians of all persuasions seem to tinker around the edges and not take into account the implications of some changes. Look at the bedroom tax.

There are so many problems nannyfran and they all have varying solutions. I am not sure if your MP being the highest paid in the country is a problem. It really depends whether he is doing a good job. There are many ways to skin a cat.

With the jobs economy hollowing out and moving towards more highly paid, highly skilled at one end and more low paid, low skilled at the other, with fewer middle income ones I am not surprised to see what your DH reports. Saddened for those it affects, but not surprised.

links.mail.actionaid.org.uk/ctt?kn=12&ms=NDY5OTA1MTYS1&r=NzUwNzI4NTI2NzAS1&b=0&j=NTIyMDczMjUyS0&mt=1&rt=0

Anyone want to sign up to this?
Get the people in your town/city/village to pay their taxes, then we will be able to give the youngsters housing benefit that older people get.

rosequartz unless I am getting her confused with someone else, which is always possible, granjura has posted in the past about the nature of her DH's work so I am not making an assumption that he had a very desirable professional qualification. (but could be making a mistake).
I've done my fair share of moving, but never been in a situation of moving without a guaranteed job for a member of the family at the point of destination. This is very different to launching yourself off with your dole money in your back pocket.

Same here, JessM. Whenever we moved, it was because my husband had a job in a different county. Twice we moved into council housing for six months, once onto Bransholme, for anyone who lives on Humberside. But that was because my husband had jobs in the councils. It is not possible to do that now as there are very few council houses. Our yougest son has worked for four different councils and has never been given a key worker house. They do not appear to be part of the job description any more.
My 21 year old granddaughter has been working all through her degree on minimum pay with a zero hours contract. She has hurt her shoulder and cannot do her job now as it requires her to do heavy lifting.
She gets no sick pay despite working for three years. She gets no benefits and has to rely on her parents paying her rent.

granjura i don't think the experience of people with highly valued professional qualifications sheds a lot of light on the situation of today's young people who don't have that advantage.

JessM I thought you were referring to all the people mentioned in all the posts, past and present, who had travelled far and wide for work, not just granjura and her family. I apologise if I misunderstood and you were referring to her family in particular but that wasn't very clear.

Is ours the only family that has family members who have launched themselves off around this country and around the world throughout the ages without any specific job to go to? I wouldn't have thought so, and I don't think we are particularly reckless but perhaps we are!

Granjura, my husband was an architect. The building industry was usually the first to make people redundant, so I do know about having to move for my husband's work.

Rose, we always moved to a part of the country where we never knew anyone. Usually I never had a job and had to find one as quickly as possible, particularly when we moved to Hampshire. We lived there for three years just working to pay the bills, and were glad to move back up north so we did not have to work so hard. But we could.

Lots of people these days have no choice. The jobs are not in the places where there is cheap housing, whether rented or purchased.
You can still buy a house or a flat in Hull for less than £50 thousand.
To get a mortgage for that you need to have a proper contract paying
more than the minimum wage. Those under 25 rarely have that.

Single people of 25 or under have rarely been able to get mortgages surely?
Living at home or sharing accommodation with other young people was, and still is, the norm, I thought. Often only those receiving benefit of some kind are the ones with their own place and that is not right unless they have a specific need. I don't think anyone on here is arguing against vulnerable young people receiving help - however I don't think that living alone in a flat subsidised by housing benefit is the right way to help them.

But it does reinforce my point about businesses playing their part with training and proper jobs paying a proper wage.

I think we are agreeing on many points and some is getting lost in translation!