Ist UKIP MP

UKIP do not have a manifesto yet.

I think they are all still working on their manifestos. Harriet Harman was asked several times about Labour's intentions with regard to several areas of policy and she wouldn't give a definitive answer no matter how many times she was asked.

I don't know what you are going to do - with the see-saw politics you have (only really giving two parties a chance), it has squeezed out the smaller parties over the years (the chant of 'it's a wasted vote' ) that could have developed into decent parties maybe. Kind of a 'you reap what you sow' scenario. But if you don't break the mould, nothing will ever change. Talk about rock and a hard place ...

Even if you are right, does that make him different to other politicians?

No, it makes him exactly the same. Where some people see him as grabbing opportunities, others see him as trying to deal with issues that the other main parties were too scared to tackle - somebody had to do it so why not him?

Bear in mind: Cameron was very anti-Europe before rising in the ranks of the Tories.

POGS Sun 12-Oct-14 23:14:50

Excellent post - it always amazes me how people can support Labour and have the nerve to criticise parties that try to correct those errors of judgement by Labour in the past (akin to shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted). As has been said by so many before: Labour always leave the country in a worse state than they took hold of it.

This is certainly a challenging time as regards national politics. The sense of disillusionment with the mainstream parties has led to the rise of UKIP who are now coming under increasing pressure, thank goodness, to prove that they are not just a flash in the pan. So far the signs are not encouraging - they appear to be very much personality-based, simplistic and hypocritical and they could make a bad situation much, much worse. In fact, the prospect of the frightfull NF and his mates getting their hands on any sort of power is appalling, so perhaps best to stick with the devils we know! The next few months, if not years, are certainly going to be very interesting, not only in the UK. In the USA and France the leadership may/could/will change hands quite soon with very uncertain consequences. And then there is the deteriorating situation in the middle-east and those terrible African health problems. The last thing we need is to be dragged into yet another vile war, but it may have to be. I wonder what plans NF has got to deal with all that from the comfort of his saloon bar in the shires.

It's our first past the post voting system that has a lot to answer for - makes it difficult for smaller parties to get a foothold ( surely that's why UKIP have always done better in EU elections) and also it disenfranchises the majority of us who don't live in marginal seats ( although I accept that that landscape might change)

Seems like we've reached as state of 'well, they're all crooked and insincere so we might as well vote for one that is 'honest about being crooked and insincere'. Mind you, was it David Cameron that said something to the effect of 'a vote for Farage will be like going to bed with Farage and waking up with Ed Milliband'. I can't quite get that image out of my head and it's a really horrible one on more than one level . Mind you, substitute Cameron for Milliband and it's not much better. Substitute David Milliband for Ed and it doesn't seem quite so horrifying [but that won't happen till after the election].

Hollydaze I don't understand what you mean by "breaking the mold". In what way is UKIP breaking the mold? As far as I can see, it is at heart a very right wing and regressive extension of the Conservative Party. A clue to what the Conservative Party stands for is in the name: to maintain the status quo. Most social reform was pioneered the Labour Party - reforms to the Poor Law, improvement of workers' pay and working conditions, control of rents, price controls, housing regulations, old age pension, the NHS, slum clearance, de-criminalisation of homosexuality and reforms to abortion and divorce laws, abolition of capital punishment, introduction of race relations law and the minimum wage, etc. etc. Many of these initiatives, including the Race Relations Act and the minimum wage, were originally opposed by the Tories.

I suppose you could say that "New Labour" broke the mold in that it tried to distance itself from the left/right argument and to form more partnerships with business - hence the PFI deals that were opposed by "Old Labour", and which have since proved to be a disaster, and the "light touch" regulation of the financial industry, which again proved to be a disaster (but which the Conservatives criticised for being not light touch enough!).

POGS I'm not sure anyone has suggested UKIP is just a problem for the Conservative Party. UKIP has included some initiatives that may well appeal to Labour or "floating" voters - but, as I've said - their key policies relate to leaving the EU, restricting immigration and reduction in taxation - with the inevitable shrinking of the state. Those who vote for UKIP on the basis of other policies, may find that - in the event UKIP forms part of a formal or informal coalition with the Conservative Party - they will be dropped. It is interesting that on their website they state "UKIP opposes the sale of the NHS to third parties". This is, I think, an ambiguous statement since it merely states its opposition but makes no assurances to halt the contracting out of certain areas of NHS provision to private service providers or to return to NHS control the substantial parts which have already been contracted out. In fact Nigel Farage is on record as saying that corporations should be allowed to run the NHS and, in an interview with the Telegraph, said that it was "ridiculous" to protect the NHS from spending cuts.

Very well put, Eleothan, you only have to watch 'Who Do You Think You Are' to be reminded about the dreadful work and social conditions endured by many ordinary people until relatively recent times under Conservative and neo-Conservative regimes. Just about all the improvements that we enjoy today had to be fought for tooth and nail by our forbears against staunch resistance from the rich and powerful. Much of what I have seen of the Tory party in my life echoes the greed and callousness of those times, and I have a feeling that UKIP mirrors many of those bad traits. It is a shame but understandable that the Labour Party was obliged to water-down many of its principles to become electable, and they may have gone a bridge too far. But at the end of the day the only ones to look after the best interests of the people are the people themselves, and that certainly is not the nasty bunch in charge of UKIP. So perhaps its time to rebuild the Labour Party and the Liberals from the ground up and not sacrifice any more of our achievements on the altar of media-induced fear, greed and divisiveness.

Eloethan

You asked me a personal question , so I will reply.

It has to me been evident that the Tory Party has been the Party spoken of as 'being the loser' to the UKIP vote. I stand by that.

Until the poor Labour voter number was returned in Heywood this was most certainly the case.

I am generalising the debate to include the media, I am not relating solely to this thread, or even Gransnet therefore I accept that nobody 'on this particular thread' has implied it is the Tory Party who will loose votes to UKIP.

I hope that clears my thoughts up for you.

I'm not sure why your points made to me in person concerning UKIP policies or their view on the NHS was not a general comment and I shall assume you meant it as a comment to other posters not meant for my attention only.

Good posts from Elothan and popaoscar, well said. The only thing I'd add to popaoscar's post, is that I don't need to watch Who Do You Think You Are to learn about the deprivations of my ancestors. My paternal family moved gradually north as agricultural work came to an end. When they were on the south coast in the mid 1850's onwards, the family history records many of their children spending short periods in the workhouse. My grandfather learned from his, that this stays coincided with the fear the children would starve, as their parents were in a period of unemployment. I visited the mill my grannie worked in when I was 12, and doing "the slave trade and cotton history" at school. I'll never forget the noise, the cotton in the air, and the friendliness of gran's workmates. My grandfather told me he and gran had to ask for Poor Relief when the mills were shut, and my dad an infant. They were told to chop up the sideboard, or sell it, then they may be eligible. These were proud, hard working people. The sideboard was the only remaining piece of furniture, and my gran's pride and joy. They seem to have survived at this time, because grandpa and his relatives had a good allotment, and hens. Tough times indeed. It's all relative, and there are people suffering the same kind of deprivations now. Ukip won't help those people. I'm with those who said those of us with Liberal or Labour leanings need to re-build our parties, from within. It's the 60's all over again

Eloethan

I don't understand what you mean by "breaking the mold". In what way is UKIP breaking the mold?

It isn't necessarily about UKIP - it's about not doing the same thing over and over again - but there is no other party posing a real threat to the Westminster elite and hasn't been since (probably) the Social Democrat Party. From what I can see, voting in either Labour or Conservative just isn't working; the UK has not only failed to move forward, it now appears to be moving backward. So, imo, breaking the mould is to stop doing the same thing over and over again. Neither Labour (shame on them) nor the Tories represent anyone other than themselves and their own vested interests.

I know there is the Green Party but the public are not warming to them (I suspect it is the two women who present the public face of The Greens - they just come across as two jolly-hockey sticks type of women who dreamt up The Green Party over drinks and canapes with 'the girls' - they really need to get people that the public resonate with).

That is why I admire Nigel Farage - he is the only one for decades that has posed a real threat to the existing order.

And I don't buy the knee jerk reaction of many people either regarding UKIP - I see them as no worse and no better than what is hanging around Westminster at the moment other than they will try to do something about UK border control (I may have misunderstood the comment but, as far as I did understand it, only the UK (due to Tony Blair) has unrestricted access) and install a points system for immigrants to enter Britain (and there is talk amongst some UKIP MPs of tying MPs pay to the national pay on average so if the public get more pay, so do MPs (Labour seriously didn't like that suggestion). On that last one alone I'd be tempted to vote for them!

"UKIP opposes the sale of the NHS to third parties". This is, I think, an ambiguous statement since it merely states its opposition but makes no assurances to halt the contracting out of certain areas of NHS provision to private service providers or to return to NHS control the substantial parts which have already been contracted out.

To be fair, Harriet Harman was asked, on Question Time, about Labour's stance on that policy and she fudged around the question and ultimately didn't state, outright, that Labour would not do the same thing.

I have been a Labour voter all my life, however when I see Ed Milliband on the Tv I cringe.Is it not a bit of a coinsidence that the three leaders of the main parties are all drawn from the same background, straight from College into Politics.
Mr Milliband has problems eating a sandwich and remembering his lines, I wonder how he got on with his Exams, not to worry running this country cant be that difficult, not like a real job.
Is it true that Tony Blair and Jack Straws Sons are being offered safe Labour seats in the next election, sounds like back stairs jobbery from where I am standing.
Am I getting cynical in my old age.

I don't know if we're getting cynical agile [I feel the same about Ed] or whether things have changed. I was pondering on the fact that all party leaders seem to be so young these days[I don't think they seem young cause I'm old ]. I think Alan Johnson would have made a good party leader.

I've got no time for any of them but I really don't understand why Ed Mliband is so hated and so ridiculed. To my mind he's no better and no worse than any of them, but it seems to be acceptable to make him a figure of fun (and I don't think he's any better at doing that himself than any of the others). Don't trust David Milliband either. What's the answer?

I think Alan Johnson is a good intentioned man and I like him very much. I think he is a bit of a pushover though and doesn't come up with much other than the party rhetoric which is a shame, I would like to know more of his views.

However I can't help but smile at his name cropping up every now and again, when Labour are usually on the ropes. Does anybody remember 'The Stalking Horse' story earlier in the year?

I like his ability to say something that doesn't get 'picked upon' by the media if it were to come from other MP's they would have a field day. For example when he states in his book about the postman who was 'sent to Coventry' by his union workmates and he didn't like it. Or when he was made the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer and he openly admitted he didn't have a clue about finance so he would need to start reading some books.

There does have to come a time when the decision has to be made whether you vote for substance over style and I wonder if being a likeable character, a man of the people tops being capable of running a country, I don't mean that comment to apply to Alan Johnson solely but to any MP.

I guess I am saying should we vote for looks and personality or ability to do the job. I dislike Ed Balls but if I thought he was the the best man for the job then that would have to take presidence. Nigel Forage is an extremely likeable character to some but that doesn't equate to being the right person to run the country either.

I also think that for any of the parties to try and ditch their leader at this late stage is nothing more than panic or a sign that they don't believe in him/her anymore so why should the voter consider them as somebody to vote for. A dangerous game to start playing 'swap the leader' at thin relatively late stage in my humble opinion.

I guess it's the politics of spin and PR over substance and loyalty that makes politics tick but I'm not that keen on it.

Agree with you totally Tegan.
Someone who has walked around in the freezing cold and wet through cursing all those Christmas Cards for less than 10 bob an hour,I would trust a man like that,Alan Johnson is also much better looking and he has a good sense of humour

Do you think we're getting more American when it comes to politics and electioneering? Looks, personality etc [and that of their wives as well]. I'm so out of touch politics wise at the moment I'm quite ashamed of myself. Our lives these days, even if not great, are still so much better than they were years ago. Is it because we need something to fight for?

I certainly don't see Natalie Bennett or Caroline Lucas as "jolly hockey-sticks types". They are intelligent, articulate, courteous and to the point - unlike many politicians today.

I do not see Nigel Farage and UKIP as a "threat to the existing order" but merely an extension of it and one that will further entrench inequality.

You don't have to look very far to find some pretty questionable behaviour from members of UKIP.

Tom Bursnall who, with his wife, defected from the Conservatives to UKIP asked in his blog "Should the unemployed be allowed to vote?" and went on to suggest that rich people should get more votes. Alexandra Swann, a UKIP councillor in Totnes, said "he has a point". Both Tom and Cat Bursnall have an appalling attendance record.

Godfrey Bloom said "No employer with a brain in the right place would employ the young, single, free woman". Nigel Farage commented "Dear old Godders! Godders' comment has been proved so right."

UKIP is part of the Europe Freedom and Democracy group consisting of far right parties. Lega Nord described Anders Breivick (the mass murderer) as "someone whose ideas are in defence of western civilization". Farage asked him to withdraw his comment - which he refused to do. Nikkie Sinclair was expelled from UKIP for refusing to take part in the EFD because of their "extreme views".

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence

Well said, eloethan, particularly about Lucas and Bennett. I cannot imagine Caroline Lucas with a hockey stick. Natalie Bennett is Australian, and very unlikely to play hockey, too. They did not dream up the Green Party; it was around long before they were involved. You are really letting your prejudice show, Holly.
The Green party has 22000 members. Ukip has 35000.

Godfrey Bloom has left UKIP, the party he helped to start.

Thanks eloethan, for another clearly written, well informed post. We need more politicians like Caroline Lucas and a lot less like Nigel Farrage. I caught 3 minutes of a BBC1 programme about Farrage yesterday, around 8 pm I think. The bit I saw indicated NF has never published accounts relating to his 'work' at the European Parliament. There was footage of him shouting personal abuse towards someone in the parliament. Did anyone see the whole programme, I'll try and watch it later.

I spent some time at the EU with a local MEP. (Election strategy meetings.) Farrage takes money from an institution he claims to despise. Farrage never attends and does no work and yes, he has been abusive and disrespectful on a personal level.

I met so many inspiring female (and male) MEPs. The EU appears more tolerant of personality and individuality than Westminster, rather ironic considering the central premise of the UKIP argument against it. Most work really hard there- nobody in UKIP does.

The recent views on abortion (for disabled foetuses) and on restricted migration to the UK for those with certain diseases is eerily reminiscent of the policies of other parties to the far right both now and in history. What lies further down the line- a yellow star worn on the breast?

Tegan

I agree and I dislike the cult of personality in politics. We need engaging, bright, individula and committed people (which should stand out) but the rest of it is wind and water, designed to obfuscate a lack of political substance. We are being taken down the river of stupid.

"A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Sums it up, eh, MillersTale?

Yes it does but unfortunately I believe there are many people buying the sound and fury. It is so much easier to blame others for your own misfortune and UKIP has successfully 'othered' immigrants.