Ashamed to be human

And that's not to mention veal and force feeding geese.

Mishap and nightowl, excellent posting thank you. We've come a long way since 1945 in terms of trying to allow for and understand other cultures. Nevertheless, the issues around Nazi beliefs and whether you might, for instance, have decided those needed to be opposed in 1939 still stand.
And relating to this discussion, which philosopher was it who said 'when we start saying they're only animals, Auschwitz begins?

I haven't heard that one annie but it's true.

Jewish author Isaac Bashevis Singer in a story "The Letter Writer" said "In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka". I don't think a non Jew would be able to say such a thing without causing great offence and I think the fact that he is Jewish gives his words great power.

petallus I oppose all those practices as well as far as I can. I think it's important to keep fighting and not simply throw up my hands in despair thinking there are so many such issues that it's not worth bothering. We can all do our little bit to make a change. As someone famous said 'be the change you want to see in the world'.

I like both those quotes nightowl

Nightowl - your post of 17.36 expressed my views exactly.

Petallus I know rabbits are kept in appalling conditions and Compassion in World Farming is trying to change this, although keeping tame rabbits free range has multiple problems.

Pressure, public awareness and opinion are changing things fast in how we breed, keep and slaughter our food animals. Battery cages, veal crates and sow stalls are largely eradicated in the UK. We've come long way, but there's a lot further to go.

Personally I don't eat fois gras and try to eat only eat free range meat and buy British milk - preferably organic outdoor. This means not eating restaurant chicken which can be difficult as it's the meat of choice. Try asking where your chicken comes from next time you eat out!

We'll I finally looked at the article and saw the absolute cruelty at the way these poor animals are hacked at until they die. How on earth are the animals eaten, there are thousands of them, they would be rotting before they could be cut up. I am shaking with anger at these people. This is not right to hack away and butcher a defenceless animal, I don't consider any animal humanely killed when it's going to be eaten but they are not killed like this. Did some posters not see the animal having his neck cut into with a knife while he was held by a rope. This barbaric torture is to bring worshipers good luck, FFS. I wonder about the thinking of people who condone this behaviour. I feel very sorry for the activist in that country having to watch this barbaric cruelty. I am still shaking!

10 million turkeys to be slaughtered in this country over the next three weeks, Mishap. And all you eat is fish and poultry.
At least in Nepal they see what happens. Most people here pretend it isn't happening because somebody else does it for them.

You said that the meat was eaten and the hides used, durhamjen. As a vegetarian you obviously wouldn't approve, but surely it's better than leaving it to rot?

There again, as Faye says, how could anything be salvaged after the way the animals were put to death?

I don't think people in this country pretend animal slaughter doesn't happen. At least in this country it's humanely done.

I'm not sure why you're singling out mishap, durhamjen.

Like a lot of other Gransnetters, I'll enjoy eating turkey on Christmas Day.
Now that my local butcher has closed, I'm not sure where I'll buy it from.
But I'm not going to feel guilty because I haven't personally supervised the killing.

Don't apologise nightowl, you were absolutely right to bring this to our attention. I despair of when the mindset of humankind will step into the 21st century.

Two images that haunt me (though not from this article). One of a child, held in his father's arms, with his eyes wide and his hands over his ears. I believe that a child instinctively recognises cruelty but 'culture' can condition him or her to accept it. The second photo, of the aftermath, a widescreen shot of thousands of carcasses and blood soaked earth, but in the distance amongst the bodies a single standing calf.

A complete betrayal of both infants.

I know I said I wanted this thread to die a quiet death but I'm haunted by this subject which I came across by chance last night. I don't want to say any more.

Yes I eat fish and poultry - I am not sure what that signifies.

Yes, truly dreadful images. Perhaps God is a buffalo and will call those who did these terrible things to account. In the meantime perhaps we should try and redress the balance a little by trying to be kind to animals. They have little choice in their lives, after all, whereas we do.

Religion, eh?

Yes, Ana, it is better than being left to rot. I do not see your point. Lots of people on here were saying it would be better if it was for food. I looked and found out they have feasts, and it is not left to rot. I read an article from an Indian or Nepalese newspaper which said that the heads were buried in a pit, and the meat either eaten at the feast or sold over the border in India.
Jane, I was singling out Mishap because she said she didn't eat much meat, just fish and poultry. The last time I looked turkeys were considered poultry.
The numbers of turkeys killed in this country in the runup to Christmas is just as obscene, as, in some cases, is the way they are killed.
I do not see how hanging a turkey up by its legs and stunning it before it has its throat cut is considered to be better for the animal.
We do it every year, not every five years. How about the British public having a couple of years off? You might find you enjoy it more.
Just because you will enjoy eating your turkey, Jane, is no reason for me not to say anything about it.

It would surely be impossible for 2,000 or so carcasses to be dissected and distributed or stored (where). There must be a huge amount of wastage.

I don't see this thread as being racist but I don't like the term "these people" as if the way they behave is completely divorced from how other people behave in the world. The Spanish have their bull fighting. We still have dog fighting, hare coursing and fox hunting (all illegal but apparently still happening). Rhinos are butchered for their horns, which are mistakenly believed to have healing qualities, elephants are killed for their ivory, baby seals are clubbed to death, whales are harpooned - the list is endless. The Nepal slaughter is a hellish spectacle but perhaps seems more so because there are hundreds of animals in one place and the slaughter doesn't occur behind closed doors.

My husband is from a Hindu background (although, other than being a quite strict vegetarian, is not practising) and he thought this Nepalese custom was pretty horrific and not one that many people of Indian origin would wish to follow. However, he and I both feel that people of all ethnicities and cultures have committed acts of barbarity against each other and other animals and nobody should feel too self-righteous.

I didn't read the phrase 'these people' as referring to the whole Nepalese nation or the Hindu faith - but to the men (and women?) actually involved in the slaughter. I would put anybody killing for the sake of blood lust into this particular 'these people' bracket. The petition is to the Nepal Government as they are the ones with the power to do something about it. I've also signed petitions against whaling without blaming the whole Japanese nation.

papaoscar that's a goog idea. We can't do an awful lot about what is happening in Napal except express horror and sign a petition. What we can do more effectively is try to improve the lot of animals in our own country.

Good posts eleothan and durhamjen.

I realise I misquoted when I was trying to remember and while researching I found this link which adds a little more I think

www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628950.400-the-link-between-devaluing-animals-and-discrimination.html

The quote was

"AUSCHWITZ begins whenever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and thinks: they're only animals," wrote the philosopher and social commentator Theodor Adorno

Eleothan and durhamjen, agree with you too. It seems to me that problems begin when we set up an animals vs human divide and people get upset if you mind animals being killed because they assume you are prioritising them.
I have always thought that WE ARE ALL ANIMALS and I am ashamed of my particular species because of the way so many of them behave. I do not condone the killing of any animal, human or otherwise. For meat or otherwise. But I also don't condemn those who do kill. Who knows what any of us might do under some circumstances.

I posted "these people," are you calling me racist Eloethan. Just because people from a country do terrible things does not mean everyone from that particular country condones it. Why do you think I or anyone else would think that?

I actually think saying people are racist is often to shut people up. I complain often about the absolute cruelty happening in this horrible world. If you are cruel I will protest, I don't really care who you are or where you are from.

On this thread we are posting about the Nepal devotees slaughtering as many as 250,000 animals. Don't think for a moment that many of us have forgotten all the other cruelty happening in other countries, including our own. I have also protested about the export of live animals in Australia. It's disgusting and just as cruel, the animals often get hacked up while still alive when they are exported to countries where this type of thing is allowed. While I am at it, let me tell you I have also protested about the treatment of refugees in Australia. I also signed petitions against slavery, hunting whales, treatment of homosexuals etc etc. I recently received an email from one of these Change.org organisations saying I am one of the people who sign the most petitions. There is much to protest about and signing petitions and protesting does make a huge difference.

I do know that turkeys are poultry!!

I say again - we are designed for meat-eating, and although I do not do much of it, we cannot get away from it; and the means by which animals are now raised and slaughtered here is regulated and is many steps up from the killing fields of nature.

There are many things in nature that I find discomfiting, but we are born to this world as it is, for better for worse.

I still find the details of the original post distressing, as I do fox hunting and hare coursing etc, because the prime aim of these is not nutrition, but we do still have the primitive instinct to hunt.

Ritual sacrifice of all kinds is distasteful to me, both in its execution and its concept.

I suspect spending a few days doing a tour of our abattoirs would challenge the comfy idea of humane practices and regulations.

We don't need all that meat.

A very disturbing thread, this one, and not for the squeamish. We, the Queen Bee and I, like to think that we love animals and have had cats, dogs, rabbits, chickens and ducks, although now its just one little dog. That lovely little canine is a ratter and has the killing skills of an assassin as regards rodents and birds (the latter - unfortunately).Our other livestock were subject to predators, and our Labradors used to chase small deer and catch rabbits and pigeons which I had to finish off, as I also did as regards our other livestock from time to time. So whilst I like to think that I am not red in tooth and claw, I might just be a little pink and do enjoy my roast chicken and pork chop, but I do love to see fine livestock well-raised, and have no time for cruelty to animalts. Is that a hypocritical attitude? If it is, I can live with it. What I found so sickening about the Nepal buffalo slaughter was the utter pointlessness and cruelty of it all, particularly the enthusiastic public participation. So, yes, at times I am ashamed to be part of the human race.

Faye My first sentence began "I don't see this thread as racist". What I was trying to say was that it is all very well to get upset about what "these people" are doing but all sorts of cruelties are going on around the world, including in so-called "civilized" countries. I'm sorry you felt I was implying you were a racist - I was not.

Mishap You state that "we are designed for meat eating", as if it were an incontrovertible fact. There are varying opinions about this. It is certainly possible for people to live healthily on a diet that contains neither meat nor fish.