Ashamed to be human

As nightowl's link demonstrates, fox hunting is still happening - and in this case children apparently observed the kill. This behaviour occurs in a supposedly civilised country with an educated population. Bullfighting is legal in Spain, as is cock-fighting in certain US states, and in parts of Africa hunting safaris are big money makers.

In 2011 Richard Benyon and Jim Paice, two government ministers, said that the hunting ban was unenforceable. Paice said "I personally am in favour of hunting with dogs, and the coalition agreement clearly states that we will have a free vote on whether to repeal the Act when there is time in the parliamentary calendar to do so."

At the end of last year Sir Nick Harvey called for the abolition of the Hunting Act saying it is unenforceable and is encouraging anti-social behaviour amongst disaffected youngsters. In other words, it is not the people illegally chasing and killing foxes that are behaving anti-socially but those that try to stop them!

The pro-hunting lobby is keeping a low profile and has not pushed for a free vote. If the Conservatives get in again, this vote will surely go ahead.

Soutra We weren't talking about FGM, Sharia law or girls being denied an education - all of which I expect most people disagree with - we were talking about the slaughter of animals.

I think it is gruesome and barbaric and I think many people would agree about that. Some also feel that we shouldn't forget other barbarities that occur nearer to home. A suggestion to those who feel very strongly about it might be to find out what organisations are in existence in Nepal and elsewhere that are campaigning against this practice, and make a donation or offer help.

The policemen didn't have guns so walloped the deer over the head that being the quickest way to put the poor thing out of it's misery. Police do not carry humane killer guns and are not trained as vets. A well hefted metal bar was probably as quick a method of despatch as any alternative.

Good point about the police not being trained as vets, NFK.

The other day the police in Devon had to hold a girl in police cells for 2 nights after she had been sectioned under the mental health act because there were no NHS hospital facilities anywhere in England where she could be safely treated.

Today I heard o the radio that police are often having to act as ambulance drivers/paramedics.

It's simply not fair to expect them to carry out jobs outwith their expertise and qualifications and then throw the book at them if they get it slightly wrong.

I don't think anything should happen to the two policemen. They did what they were asked to do, to reduce the suffering of an animal, in the best way they could. I don't suppose they enjoyed having to do it. What would you have done in such a situation? Left it to die a slow, painful death?

Killing is not always "harm".

This puts a different slant on the story. Assuming the reporting is accurate, it does seem odd that they should choose to bludgeon the deer to death if they had firearms and are trained to put injured animals down. I think it is right this should have been investigated.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711379/Two-Durham-gun-police-face-probe-battering-injured-deer-death-crowbar-instead-shooting-it.html

I've been away, so had caught up by reading this thread and want to say thanks to popaoscar for his contributions.

If the report is accurate, I agree that a thorough investigation is the way forward. If the policemen had guns, their reported behaviour does seem odd. Meanwhile we can only speculate.

In reply to dj, if they had more humane means available , they shouldd be prosecuted for animal cruelty however, a well aimed head blow could also be the most effective way of putting an animal out of its misery. But I thpught the point of this discussion (and certainly my contribution) was whether it is right to speak out against barbaric practices in other cultures and yes I include bullfighting. I think it is not only right but imperative whatever the PC lobby think. That is precisely why I extended the scope of practices to those affecting human rights. Sorry if my point was unclear or obscured by the vegetarian argument (where incidetally I tink individuals should be free to make their own choice)

Ashamed to be human? Hmm..from time to time I've had to despatch a suffering injured animal in situations where I've had nothing more than whatever was to hand with which to do the deed. Did I feel ashamed? I have to say I didn't. I was glad that I was able to lift the burden of suffering from the poor creature. So, as regards the policemen and the injured deer, I would have to support their action. Sometimes, unpleasant things have to be done for the best.

We don't have the full story about the injured deer. We do know that as usual, the police were the front line agency called out to deal with the incident. No doubt an investigation of what actually happened will follow with the officers either disciplined or the matter closed.

We don't need an investigation to confirm that the animals referred to in the OP were killed in inhuman, painful and terrifying circumstances. As Soutra says, whether we eat animals is an individual choice. We're also free to do the best we can to ensure the animals we eat had freedom before being despatched as humanely as possible.

Eating flesh or fowl shouldn't exclude people from expressing dislike to animal cruelty whether it's in the UK or in foreign countries.

Good post Iam64

I noticed this snippet in the article "Officers have to be given authority to use their weapons by a duty inspector."

Perhaps they had not been given that authority, we don't know.

After giving the matter some thought I realise I don't feel at all ashamed of being human.

I haven't eaten meat for over thirty years and I am kind to animals.

If I ate meat I might feel more ashamed. It's all very well saying we can do our best to make sure animals we eat are treated humanely but I wouldn't put much faith in our ability to do so. And anyway, what does 'doing our best' mean?

As for killing for pleasure (which those in Napal are said to be doing) much of the excessive and fancy meat eating which takes place in the West is for pleasure, not need. There is a growing problem of obesity and eating too much meat, especially red, is not healthy.

petallus - it's good to know you don't feel ashamed to be human, some of which you attribute to not eating meat.

I do eat small amounts of meat, I don't feel ashamed to be humans and I repeat, I 'do my best' to ensure the meat I consume has walked about, enjoyed life outdoors and been as humanely killed as is possible. I'm sure there's room for improvement, and I certainly don't claim to be like Mary Poppins "simply perfect in every way'

They had guns. They were trained firearms officers.
www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/story/2014-07-30/police-probe-after-officers-use-crowbar-to-kill-deer/
It was in all the papers at the time and on the local news. Last week it was said that they were not to be prosecuted but internally disciplined. RSPCA are not happy; neither are Peta.

Petallus Obesity is due to people eating too much carbohydrate, in particular refined sugars, not to eating too much meat.

Up to date story about the police officers.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11634868.Police_officers_accused_of_bludgeoning_deer_to_death_with_crowbars_face_gross_misconduct_hearing___but_no_criminal_charges/

I think they should face criminal charges. I would also like to know what happened to the photos, but I do not suppose we ever will.

Thanks janeainsworth. Do you mean that if people cut out carbs and ate loads of other stuff they wouldn't get fat?

Although some foods are more likely to increase weight than others, total calorie intake also has a part to play.

Anyway, What I meant is that people eat too much generally (not just meat. In terms of health, quite often now there are warnings against eating too much meat, particularly of the red variety.

On the hunting front, I was out walking in the countryside in Berkshire in October with a friend when a hunt appeared in full regalia with dozens of followers in cars. We were high up in an area with clumps of woodland around. The horsemen circled one of these small woods and the hounds were crashing about in the wood with lots of accompanying toots from the horsemen on their bloomin' horn. This went on for some time, I do not think they were following a scent laid trail!!

My friend who is a country side dweller doesn't think for a moment that the hunts obey the ban, they just hide what they are doing and the police really don't care. I think the ban will be repealed once the general election has come and gone.

I find it hard to comment on stories like the one about the deer. I feel I don't know enough, that newspapers especially local ones often misreport or sensationalize. At least it looks like it's being dealt with.

Iam64 I don't feel ashamed of being human in the context of the OP, that is because of cruelty to animals.

I sometimes feel ashamed for other reasons, though not of being human.

So where should we get our information from if not local radio and newspapers, annie? A police report is not going to be available to the general public, is it?

By the way, annie, the whole of this thread is as a result of the DM article that nightowl put up in the OP.

I don't feel ashamed to be human in the context of the OP, nor in any context. I feel sad that some human beings do cruel things, but I am aware that evil exists and all we can do is our best to reduce it. This does not make me ashamed. Why would it? Life, human or otherwise, is not simply good or bad.

Not that I think the buffalo slaughter is evil. I agree with everyone else who thinks it would be better not done, but such practices are based on very old ideas and traditions so I don't think petitions to stop it are the way to go (nothing against anyone else petitioning if that's what they want to do). With good, well-rounded universal (i.e. for girls as well as boys) education/schooling these old and now unnecessary practices tend to die out.

Mind you, if the meat is eaten and the people killing the buffalo do not have sophisticated tools with which to do the job, I wouldn't even call it an unnecessary practice. Obviously it would be better if the animals were slaughtered humanely, but that may not have been an available option. Let's hope it becomes so as soon as possible.

Good post.