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Breaking News - Allegedly 10 people killed at office of satirical magazine in Paris

(923 Posts)
TerriBull Wed 07-Jan-15 11:50:23

Whilst we don't have all the facts, I have read that at least ten people have been killed at the offices of a satirical French magazine in Paris where gunmen have opened fire.

Given the troubled times we are living in should publications try to rein in the content of anything that might be deemed controversial to certain groups because scenarios like this one will make it hardly worth the loss of life/ves, or should free speech prevail at all costs?

soontobe Sat 17-Jan-15 14:01:25

I think I am right in saying that thatbags said on a different thread, that she would not give or allow free speech to the terrorists themselves.

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 17-Jan-15 13:42:03

I see. Thank you. I agree that banning is not right, but would hope people would exercise a degree of discretion, and understanding.

I think we agree. smile

Eloethan Sat 17-Jan-15 13:26:14

I'm saying jingle that the contention that "free speech" is the mainstay of French and other European society and it has been upheld whatever offence or risk it may cause is misleading.

I expressed the personal opinion that using disgusting, demeaning images solely to ridicule and insult should not be commended or encouraged. I would not, however, ban or censor such images but would suggest that if "anything goes" so far as offence is concerned, then that should apply equally to all religious or other potentially sensitive issues.

NfkDumpling Sat 17-Jan-15 12:34:52

Anyone listening to The Now Show? Brilliant!

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 17-Jan-15 11:30:25

They took that play off because they couldn't put audiences at risk. Pity Charlie H didn't think the same way.

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 17-Jan-15 11:23:59

I don't understand. You list other examples of where you feel freedom of speech was not upheld. So, what are you saying? That because in the past those things happened, we should not be debating this event now? Or we should go back in time and sort all those cases out?

Totally confused at what the intention of that post was.

Respect for posting all that at one o'clock in the morning though.

NfkDumpling Sat 17-Jan-15 10:55:00

Excellent post Eloethan.

rosequartz Sat 17-Jan-15 10:29:58

eloethan a very good post indeed highlighting the double standards which exist everywhere.

Mishap Sat 17-Jan-15 10:15:20

Yes - a very useful post. It highlights the fact that none of this is black and white, which is my concern about the march that was held with many world leaders there. What exactly were they supporting? And were they all supporting the same thing? This sort of entrenched unsubtle espousing of a cause is not really helpful. Our worlds leaders should be looking at the subtleties and the contradictions that surround the issue of free speech.

petallus Sat 17-Jan-15 10:07:42

Brilliant post. I agree with every word.

Eloethan Sat 17-Jan-15 01:00:07

I think the Channel 4 interview with Will Self and Martin Rowson (a cartoonist), the link for which granjura posted quite a way back on this thread, included some interesting points.

Martin Rowson, who was speaking in favour of freedom of expression, said that he would not produce the sort of cartoons that Charlie Hebdo publishes, partly because he doesn't feel all together comfortable with their salacious style and partly out of fear. I believe it was he that also said he would not produce cartoons which similarly mocked Judaism, not through fear of being physically attacked but through fear of never being commissioned to do any work again, i.e. "career suicide".

He commented that he had been invited to attend a vigil, for which he had been asked to bring along the words of the Marseilles. He pointed out the irony of this as the Marseilles had been composed when France was a "terrorist state", and includes a chorus to the effect of "We will irrigate the fields with the blood of our enemies".

Outright censorship, or self-censorship, is not a new phenomenon:

In 2005 France's Catholic Church won a Court injunction banning a fashion house from displaying a poster based on The Last Supper. The judge said it was a "gratuitous and aggressive act of intrusion on people's innermost beliefs". The posters were also banned in Milan.

In several European countries, Holocaust denial is a criminal offence. Quite right, you may say, but how exactly does that accord with the principle of free speech and surely there are several examples of genocide which have not been granted such recognition and protection - for instance, the estimated 50-100 million American Indians wiped out in North America?

Charlie Hebdo fired one of their writers in 2009 for writing a sentence some said was anti-Semitic. The writer was then charged with and cleared of a hate crime offence, and won a judgment against the magazine for unfair termination.

The 1998 play “Corpus Christi,” depicting Jesus as gay, was repeatedly cancelled by theatres due to bomb threats.

The Dixie Chicks were deluged with death threats after they publicly criticized George Bush for the Iraq War. In fear, they yielded to the threats and apologised.

In 2004 a play relating to the Sikh religion was shut down after violent protests outside the theatre and death threats made against the playwright.

In the face of death threats or "career suicide", most of these artistic ventures were halted but who knows what would have happened if those under threat had, like the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists, gone ahead anyway.

Recently on the news was a report of the punishment meted out to Raif Badawi in Saudi Arabia for writing a blog. He has been sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment and 1,000 lashes, to be administered 50 at a time. His writings have been described as an ongoing discussion about religion which included a criticism of the clerics in Saudi Arabia where the strict conservative interpretation of Islam first originated and continues to be practised.

And yet, marching in Paris last week - against the atrocity that happened there but also in tacit support of the "Je suis Charlie" message championing free speech - was a representative from Saudi Arabia.... and a representative from Egypt, both of which are really not that keen on free speech but who know that the murder and torture they use to silence criticism will be overlooked by their western allies.

Personally, I think the sort of satire whose sole purpose is to insult and ridicule is neither funny nor beneficial. My feeling is that it serves only to create further division and hatred. But if "freedom of speech" is to be the mantra on which the "civilized" world is to be judged, then let that freedom of speech be applied equally in all matters.

Of course most people are appalled and angry about the attacks in France and I understand why they feel that freedom of expression must be maintained at all costs. I do not understand, though, why David Aaronovitch feels he is entitled to call those with different views from himself "weasels" and "victim blamers". For someone so keen on free speech he seems very keen to shut down discussion by impugning the character and motivation of others just because they see things differently.

Ana Fri 16-Jan-15 23:14:51

Just thought I'd give the programme a plug before we go back to discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! grin

Ana Fri 16-Jan-15 23:10:32

Did anyone else watch 'The Last Leg' tonight (Ch4)? The BBC wouldn't dare air such controversial views. Wonderful!

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 16-Jan-15 23:09:47

(Well, I would be anyway)

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 16-Jan-15 23:08:11

"[I wonder sometimes for instance what I would be like if I was born male and into say an extreme muslim household.]"

Shit scared.

soontobe Fri 16-Jan-15 22:54:14

Chrisitans are not perfect. We do our best. The whole thing is a long journey, our lifetime.

soontobe Fri 16-Jan-15 22:52:38

We are to hate what they do.

We are supposed to love them.

'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'

That was specific to who Jesus was talking about.

Part of the reason for christians taught to love, is because we do not know what anyone's very specific set of circumstances are.
[I wonder sometimes for instance what I would be like if I was born male and into say an extreme muslim household.]

We dont have to necessarily start feeling sorry for everyone, but yes, we are supposed to love them.

But God does say "vengenance is mine, I will repay". So we leave vengence up to God.

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 16-Jan-15 22:47:07

Who is?!

rosequartz Fri 16-Jan-15 22:42:41

Well, not hatred of Muslims, only of extremists.
He is a Muslim himself.

Are we allowed to hate murderering thugs (because that is what they are) or do we have to start feeling sorry for them?

'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'.

I am not that good.

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 16-Jan-15 22:40:07

It sounds like the start of intolerance, and perhaps hatred, to me.

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 16-Jan-15 22:39:14

From the article (Dan Hodges)

"This is the deal. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims. Welcome. You are free to practice your faith amongst us. But never forget this. It is your faith, not mine. And if you can’t accept that, then in the immortal words of the mayor of Rotterdam, you can “f––– off"

Yes, but the mayor of Rotterdam was saying it to murderous jihadists. Not to the people of religions in general. How long before they start telling them all to fuck off?

jinglbellsfrocks Fri 16-Jan-15 22:36:04

confused I thought it was Dan Hodges who was pompous. Not soontobe.

thatbags Fri 16-Jan-15 22:35:25

Give me pomposity over murder any day.

Not that I agree Hodges' article is pompous. Direct and incisive, I'd call it.

soontobe Fri 16-Jan-15 22:32:23

I was really agreeing with Mishap that there is physically nowhere to go.

Yes we have free will Soutra, but we are not really free.
Not sure if that was hereisy. I dont know the true meaning of the word. Plus which I was going to look up what the bible says about free stuff tomorrow.

We are set free from the devil I think. Again, more to look up tomorrow.

absent Fri 16-Jan-15 22:30:03

Nonu I think the generally accepted convention is that keying in caps equates to shouting.