Farage is getting frightening now

In Brazil, the rate of ceasarians is 82% in private hospitals, whilst the rest is vastly under-funded.

There is grat concern about over diagnosis, and over treatment in many countries with private health system where businesses are in competition with one another.

Some countries for instance, have massive rates of ceasarian sections- which are totally un-necessary and even dangerous.

When I was studying European health care systems in the 1990s - I specialised in Sweden and Germany, there was a phrase in one of the books on the German system quoting a German doctor ' healthy is the German who has not been tested enough' - it still makes me smile

Private medicine does often result in more and more treatment- to the point of over-treatment, and can actually be dangerous. Giving antibiotics for any cough or sore throat is just not safe, x-raying, radiotherapy and double the chemo can be really dangerous.

Ashtree you really cannot compare the treatment your friend is receiving in Spain with the treatment her niece is receiving in the UK.
What is right for one patient isn't necessarily right for another, and more treatment isn't necessarily better treatment.

It's not exactly a level playing field though, is it whitewave, since levels of poverty, benefits, employment, cost of living etc. differ between E U countries.

Or is that just another example of muddled thinking?

Are there any manifestos out yet, JessM? I read yesterday that Cameron is trying to improve the manifesto before it is published. I was surprised because I thought it would have been out by now, so I checked and it hasn't been published yet.
I have also read that a lot of Italians are going back home, having spent up to 15 years here. They do not like the cost of living, the binge drinking and the weather. They also say it's difficult to find jobs.

None have been revealed to the public yet, have they?

I have been waiting for the manifesto. I assumed it hadnt arrived. That is bad really.

Well whatever it says, it will belong on the fiction list

Anyone know when the UKIP manifesto is due out? There has been so much ducking and weaving about what it will actually contain...

Some villages in SW FRance and Southern Spain have been inundated by foreigners, be their Dutch, Germans or Brits- all the local shops have become 'expat' shops selling Bratwurst and baked beans, etc- and every day, white vans arrive with builders, plumbers and electricians and all the paraphenalia bought much cheaper in the UK, to illegally do up the houses without paying any taxes or buying a single nail or screw locally.

exactly gran

our freedom to travel and live in the EU using the resources available to us in other countries is no different to that of other EU residents and their ability to travel and reside in other countries than their own, and to argue different is muddled thinking.

the 'denigration' of foreigners in the UK, by some, as nothing subtle about it, that is for sure.

Shame you can't see that what some Brits resent from foreigners, is exactly what they do elsewhere, in their 10000s - whilst calling themselves 'expats' (which does seem pretty hypocritical, no?).

It's up to the Spanish and French governments to do something about it then whitewave.

I suspect that in many cases jobs which Brits 'are not prepared to do' are so badly paid and insecure that they are afraid to come of the low but reliable benefits they are receiving to do them.

A relative of mine took such a job (zero hours contract) and ended up earning less than he would have received on benefits, plus he had travelling expenses, and so could not afford to feed himself. Luckily he didn't have children to look after.

I am sure many EEs are doing excellent jobs but not all (I know of at least two who did not).

I am irritated by the tendency of some people to put EEs on a pedestal whilst subtly denigrating people who were born here (of whatever ethnic background).

Think how many of the Spanish and French felt when so many British bought property in their countries - raising the cost for the locals - annoyed I would think.

Of course Petallus- 2 wrongs never make a right anyhow. But the fact is, that British expats are very expensive to other countries in Europe, and that there always seem to be a difference- eg Brits are 'expats' and therefore entitled to the best from elsewhere, whereas, say, East Europeans are, not sure what words to use, 'less worthy' somehow. Despite the fact many are working very hard in the UK, doing an excellent job most of the time and for low wages, and often the jobs the Brits themselves just are not prepared to do.

Brits in Europe are no more, no less, foreigners in another land.

Article today showed the level of health care country by country being given to British ex-pats compared to that country's ex-pats being given health care here. What the British are receiving is enormous for every country except Ireland, compared to the reciprical arrangement for that country' ex-pats (hope this making sense!)

Yes, that may very well be the case granjura.

However, I do not feel inclined to tell those who feel themselves to be in dire straits because of a large influx of Eastern Europeans to their small seaside town that they should stop wingeing because Brits don't bother to learn the language when they settle in other countries.

Yes, granjura they are retired in Spain, having worked and paid taxes in the UK, now receiving a UK pension. I don't have a problem at all with the NHS funding her treatment. That is absolutely right. What I cannot understand is that her treatment appears to be far superior than her niece's in the UK, and the UK pay up, no questions asked. Whereas there are treatments withheld in the UK because of the cost. Even she thinks it's wrong, and is a little embarrassed about it.

AshTree, do you mean she is of retirement age? Otherwise surely she has to have medical insurance in Spain?

The only reason our medical costs are paid for by the UK here, is because we worked and paid taxes and stamps all our lives in the UK, and are now retired here on UK pensions only (by reciprocal arrangement).

I have a friend who has lived in Spain as an ex-pat for around 20 years. She is currently being treated for breast cancer - the treatment has included surgery, a series of scans, chemotherapy and radiotherapy. She has a niece, still in the UK, who has been suffering an almost identical form of breast cancer and they have, understandably, compared notes.
The ex-pat's treatment has been far more thorough and in-depth than her niece's. The niece has had no scans apart from the initial one, and has had radiotherapy only, whilst her aunt in Spain has had chemo too, in a kind of 'belt and braces' approach.
I don't claim to know whether this represents an improved treatment in Spain. But: all the treatment in Spain is being paid for by the NHS, even though that level of treatment would not have been available to her had she still lived in the UK. This cannot be right.

Petallus, a huge number of British expats in France, Spain, Greece, italy and more- do not speak more than a smattering of their local language- some even after 5, 10 or more years- and expect all to speak English and just shout louder and louder (in English) when not understood...

I was talking about Europeans.

Would have to have a little think about non-Europeans.

I really don't understand what you are saying Petallus. Are you talking about non- Europeans who come to live in the UK and the burden they put on local services- including health? I can see the argument about reducing these numbers in the future but how would you deal with people that are already here and have a health need?