NHS/TTIP

I think that apathy rules where TTIP is concerned whitewave. Some people find it too complex to understand and, it's been my experience that they just can't or won't believe the power that huge corporations will have to overturn democratically reached decisions. When I tell people that a section of the TTIP treaty allows companies to sue a country's government if it considers its interests are being damaged they really think I must be mistaken.

Don't you think that's a bit over dramatic? USA companies will be able to get their hands on the NHS. Maybe some companies will provide services to the NHS but at the moment only 6% is private and that is only up 1% in the last 5 years.

We provide services all over the world and other countries provide services here. Don't see it as different when it is the US.

Any NHS service contracted out to an American Investor, means that under the terms of TTIP the US contractor will be able to sue the British Government if in future it decides to take back one of these contracted out services and place it under the NHS umbrella.

I think it is important to respect the British Government's sovereignty, and ultimately the voter's sovereignty. We have not been consulted over this important loss of our democracy.

Any person in charge of outsourcing has a duty to ensure that the contract is appropriate and that the contractor is capable of doing the job. If they fail to do this they are culpable. They should also ensure sufficient KPIs are in place and properly monitored. That fiasco over the security at the Olympics was as much the fault of the people who awarded the contract as the company who failed to do the job they had been contracted to do.

I haven't read up on TTIP but am pretty sure that if the appropriate safeguards were in place it would be possible to terminate the contract of a failed contractor.

Is this overdramatic, too. Nonnie?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/16/nhs-privatisation-biggest-history-staffordshire-cancer

Unlike you, I have read up on TTIP, at least the bits that we are allowed to know about.
We need to have a Labour government as they will keep us in Europe and hopefully out of the TTIP.

It hasn't really anything to do with the way governments ensure a proper contract. For example the German government contracted out it's nuclear energy programme to a Swedish company with which they have a similar arrangment to TTIP. As you will be aware Germany has recently decided to reduce it's nuclear capacity and rely more on renewable energy. The Swedish company is sueing the German Government for billions of euros as a result of this decision.
The German Government has a mandate from its population to reduce it's nuclear capacity. but somehow can be "fined" for pursuing a democratic mandate given to it by the German people. No democracy there.

This is a serious question - how will staying in Europe help us? We seem to be fined and dictated to enough already.

Why would Europe save the UK from TTIP unless there's something in it for them?

ana I think that this is where durham and I part company. It is the EU that is negotiating the terms with the USA. - saying that the UK government is going along with them. I am not sure what a Labour Government would do I must admit not to have read about it.

Thanks, whitewave.

Whitewave, the Labour party want us to stay in the EU. Many MEPs want us to stay out of the TTIP.
The Conservative party and Ukip want us to come out of the EU and to sign up to TTIP.
That's the difference. If we stay in the EU we may be protected from TTIP to some extent, particularly keeping the NHS out of TTIP.

nhap.org/new-report-says-ttip-will-bring-european-disintegration-unemployment-instability/

Not the latest article, but readable.

a fact check on NHS/TTIP.

https://fullfact.org/law/does_ttip_mean_privatisation_nhs-38681

So are you saying that whitewave is wrong, durhamjen, when she says that the EU is negotiating the terms with the USA. - saying that the UK government is going along with them?

https://opendemocracy.net/ournhs/caroline-molloy/nhs-boss-stevens-and-ttip-lobbyists

This is from last year, and shows how long some of us on here have been discussing TTIP and the NHS.

https://opendemocracy.net/ournhs/tamasin-cave/privatising-cabal-at-heart-of-our-nhs

This is from yesterday, and shows how many fingers in the NHS/privatisation pie.

I'd rather you answered my question in your own words, durhamjen, if you don't mind.

I do not understand your point, ana.
TTIP is being negotiated between the EU and the USA. However, if it was not for green party opposition in the EU, it would probably have gone through by now, and the NHS would be open to TTIP.
If we leave the EU, as the Tories and Ukip want us to, we will not have this protection, as the Tories and Ukip want the NHS to be privatised.
I cannot put it any clearer.

https://opendemocracy.net/ournhs/tamasin-cave/privatising-cabal-at-heart-of-our-nhs

Look at this link to see the links between the NHS and US private health companies.
This really does frighten me more than a perceived disagreement between whitewave and me.

I'm glad I'm not so easily frightened. I can't see the UK leaving the EU any time soon, whoever forms the next government so I think your fears in that direction are unfounded.

As for the rest, I don't think any number of petitions or protests will make the slightest bit of difference I'm afraid.

I think I have answered in my own words, ana. I have also given you some links which tell you why I think as I do.
If you're not happy with that, I can't help you.
What do you think about the links between private companies and the NHS? Does it not worry you that so many people at the top of the NHS are former United Health employees?
If the Tories get in, there will be no help for the NHS.

The NHS would have been completely privatised by now if we all thought like you, ana.

Those of you who feel that the world is in completely safe hands should perhaps think of the many scandals involving large corporations which have damaged people's livelihoods and threatened their very existence.

There are very many reputable experts and organisations that believe if the TTIP Agreement becomes a reality this will give corporations more power than elected governments. Perhaps Nonnie if you had read up on this subject, you might be more concerned.

action.sumofus.org/a/stop-ttip-eci/

Just had this from sumofus. Nearly 3 million signatures.
Anyone still want to sign up to it?
No prize for being the 3 millionth, but it'll make you feel good.

How?

Oops, sorry! Thought it and before I knew it I'd done it