"A tragic death due to over demand and under capacity"

I didn't know it understand the phrase "sink estate" so I looked it up and found this. Do other's agree with this explanation:

"Sink estates were largely created by the 'right to buy' system popularised by the Conservative party in the 1980s and 1990s.

Council tenants in more popular areas (ie prosperous larger, terraced or semi-detached properties) were far more likely to want to buy their property and also more likely to be able to secure a mortgage from building societies.

This left the less popular areas (usually run-down inner-city areas, no-go areas and those with higher crime rates or far less attractive housing) still under council ownership.

The councils at the time were rate-capped and had limited budgets for improvements or refurbishments.

This in turn exacerbated existing social problems and further alienated or isolated the people left 'abandoned' in those areas from wider society.

The origin, date and definitive meaning of the term 'sink estate' is, however, unknown. Or, at least, I couldn't find it.

The phrase is relatively new and came into usage in the 1990s, and was probably a term coined by journalists."

Know OR understand! Kindle in bed = not good!

Para above copied from this site:

www.intelligentanswers.co.uk/index.php?topic=1073.0

I read your post Grannyknot and thought the phrase originated earlier than the 90s, so googled and found this:

'The term 'sink estate' is first recorded in an article in 'New Society' magazine in an issue of 1976. There had been earlier references in the British press to 'sink areas' and 'sink schools'. It would seem, therefore, to be a journalistic term rather than a sociologist's one.

'Sink' is not a reference to the kitchen sink but to the much older idea that a 'sink' is a pit dug for waste water/sewage to flow into...a cesspit, in other words. So, 'sink' places represent the lowest of the low.'

I suspect that it is even more middle class to assume that if one's own children go to a school that does not feature high on league tables, the school will inevitably benefit from their presence. I didn't go so far as to think that exactly but I never did any school research when our house movings entailed changes of schools; I just sent my kids to the local state school. I believe that if everyone did that there'd be fewer problems because there would be a better social balance.

Bags would it be a safe bet to assume that you moved to relatively nice locations?

You might not have been so laid-back about schools if you lived in an under-privileged area or if the nearest school was in the middle of a sink estate.

Even the best schools can go downhill. We moved to an area where the school had an excellent reputation under a highly esteemed HT who retired as soon as my DSs arrived - not cause and effect! This school, in a largely professional/managerial catchment area is now suffering from two decades of inadequate management and its OFSTED assessments have been disappointing. Many parents are now sending their offspring to schools in neighbouring areas, or indeed to private schools.

I really don't like that expression "sink estate". How awful for people who have to live in one.

Not picking on people who use on here though, just learning and expressing my feelings.

Actually, riverwalk, the primary school DD3 went to is in a relatively deprived area. It served her (and lots of other kids) well. And the one DDs 1 & 2 went to served a good cross section from a small town, including most of the children from the poorest area of said town. In both cases there was/is only one state secondary school. So what I said earlier was completely honest and above board. All I did in both cases when we were moving to a new area (from Scotland to relatively southern England and back to Scotland again) was find the nearest school and ring them before we arrived to give them the children's details and tell them when we'd be starting. No research other than that because, although I may be middle class by education, I'm not a snob and don't want my kids to be. I want them to mix with all 'classes' as I did growing up. I don't make assumptions about other people I don't know either.

durhamjen I have never expected the council to replace my kitchen after I had bought the house, I said that it was about 30 years old when I bought the house and I replaced it a few years later when I could afford it. Someone else has said that I fell for Thatchers trick of buying my house. I saw simply a way of investing in property that I could not afford to do on the open market, it was and still is a wonderful way of people to better themselves and get a foot on the property ladder and it is open to anyone who is a tenant. How can that be a trick, if anyone doesn't wan to buy then good luck to them but for me I have the pride of being a home owner and I think that everything is MINE, no man involved, every penny has been earned.

As regards 'good schools' and bad ones, my DD has studied the Ofsted reports and picked a first school with a private nursery for DGD. You might all think she is a snob as she has not chosen the local school for the reason of the Ofsted report and also the bad reputation of the families that use the school.
We all want our kids to have good education so can anyone tell me how do you cope with your kids being mixed in with families that are gypsies, thugs, unemployed (long term), the kids who scream and shout and swear, fight and run wild unsupervised in the street.
The kids DGD will be mixing with are from families who supervise their kids, take them out on proper outings, read with them and generally are well behaved. How do you tell a toddler not to copy a nose picking swearing brat. I defy anyone not to stop their kids or grandkids from mixing with these horrible kids, not the kids fault but I certainly don't want her mixing with these scum

those of you are the ones who are the snobs are the ones who say they want their kids to mix with all classes. You have never had to delouse your kids, have to explain why a boy aged 3 sexually assaulted your child (as I did) because his mum was a prostitute and allowed him to watch and he copied what he had seen by trying out stuff that too horrific to describe. The list goes on, another girl used to make dog poo sandwiches to feed her friends etc. Try living on a sink estate.

bags I don't think it's snobbish to want your children to go to a school which has a reputation for encouraging the children to fulfill their potential.
It's simply being a normal parent.

The schools my kids went to wanted kids to fulfill their potential. Most schools do, even ones in "working class" areas. I think it is snobbish to want to separate one's kids from less fortunate ones, though it's also understandable on some level. I just didn't and don't feel the need to do it, neither did my parents, neither did my very working class grandparents who didn't get the chance to stay at school as long as they would have liked.

Earlier in this thread you say:

"Its difficult to get across what I am trying to say. I think that if someone has come from a privileged background they might not understand the fears/problems/social deprivations that someone might face who is not so well off".

On the one hand you seem to have a problem with "privileged" people who don't understand the issues regarding social deprivation but later on in the thread you describe the children of gypsies and the unemployed as "brats" "scum" and "horrible". I feel it is wrong to talk about children in that way.

You describe what you consider to be the middle class assumptions of a health visitor with whom you had some dealings, and her lack of understanding of how you lived. And yet you are showing a good deal less tolerance and understanding of people that you obviously consider to be inferior to yourself.

Even people that you would expect to know better - those who have attended public schools costing upwards of £30,000 a year - have been known to behave like hooligans and thugs - trashing hotels and treating staff like rubbish. And I think you may find that many middle class parents are equally capable of letting their children run wild and treat property and people with disrespect.

"Good" schools and middle class lifestyles do not necessarily lead to courteous, considerate and socially responsible people. I should imagine there are children living in big houses, going on nice outings, reading books and going to "good" schools whose parents have attained their wealth by way of some very questionable means.

By the way, I remember my daughter getting nits and she attended a fairly middle class school - nits are no respecter of class.

I've had to deloise my kids several times. It's not a big deal. One just has to be thorough and systematic with a nit comb. Head lice aren't snobbish.

But the rest of what you describe, ethelt, is beyond my ken. I can only say I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences.

I do think we have been lucky with the schools our kids have landed in, but because of that, and because we weren't in especially "middle class" areas, I also think our luck, if that's what it is, is unlikely to have been unusual. Perhaps the fact that we have lived in towns rather than actual cities is what has made the difference? I don't know.

Nits like clean hair. My granddaughters have had them. My grandson hasn't because his hair is always short, I presume.

My children went to schools where they walked through council estates, and went to the schools with council estate kids. They played with them. In fact, I did not know who came from the private or council houses, they all looked just as scruffy. I actually dared to have council estate kids in my house, I assume.
I brought my kids up to believe that everybody is important; the man who cleans the windows or empties the bin is just as important as the headmaster or the vicar. I give those examples because my sons played with the sons of all these people.

I suppose it could be because my father is related to Romany gypsies, although I did not know it at the time. We do not mind mixing with all kinds of people.

eloethen, I try to see all sides of an argument. I have little tolerance of people who let their kids 'run wild' and it is hard to teach little ones who to mix with so they don't copy bad manners/behaviour, but I also feel sympathy with those like I was, living on a run down estate. There doesn't have to be 'right' and 'wrong', 'black' and 'white'.

Are their no families like me who by no fault of their own had to sell a nice house in a good area because of redundancy then became widowed and had to live with tarts and drug addicts etc on an estate. I found it hard that the council treated everyone the same, as if we were all potential layabouts. I was respectable and tried so hard to save and bring DD up properly. I could have gone boozing/dancing but I did not want to end up with another man, I kept myself dedicated to being a good mother. I can hold my head up high/worked hard and brought my DD up well. The few families I knew who were respectable soon bought houses and moved away as I did.

Hear, hear! I was brought up with that too, dj.

Am I so wrong to want my DGD to be protected from rough undisciplined kids whose parents haven't got any decent parenting skills. I don't see it as wrong to talk about children in this way at all. Its not their fault but it doesn't endear me in any way. I prefer pretty, well dressed little girls and smart clean little boys with good manners. Even DGD who is just past two will introduce herself and say Hi, how are you.

btw I have nothing against gypsies, however the travellers nowadays seem to be just out to make a quick buck in any easy way they can. I have read novels about romanies and found them romantic. Nowadays they just do gardening and odd jobs. I would tolerate them better if they did not steal (I caught a gang raiding my skip) or hoard rubbish.
If I met some who wanted to live in a decent way despite having a bad start in life I would probably get on with them. There is a girl like this who works in a local school and has turned her back on travellers, she is well liked and got lots of qualifications -good for her.

I am not a snob despite what you all think, I will help anyone, years of being a literacy tutor has shown me that all kinds of people want a better life and will strive for it and I will help them in any way I can. It is just the no hopers I cannot tolerate.

I didn't know you'd spent years being a literacy tutor, ethel. What made you give that up?