Now that ISN'T funny.

I agree with absent
I do not think the remark as spoken was racist, rather it was inferring that someone else was racist in an ironic way.
I had never heard of the term as a racist term so it can't be widespread

He seemed to be 'having a dig' at NF (no pun intended).

I too believe it to be racist

So I agree with pompa too.

Yes, absent, context is everything. I'm not disagreeing about that. I never do. That tends to be what I stress in discussions like this. All I'm saying is that I don't agree that we should necessarily avoid using words or phrases that someone might take offence at. One doesn't always know what those are, for a start. I feel that the sentence I highlighted to illustrate where I disagreed is too all encompassing as it stands. That's all.

The issue of whether this particular spade remark in its particular context was racist is not what I was discussing. I agree with the OP and others in that I don't think the remark was 'funny'.

Agree, pompa

I agree.

I think it was intended to be racist, poorly disguised as a common place saying.

If you talk of calling a spade a spade, I think it is generally recognised as a well-enough known saying not to be interpreted in any way other than that intended. However, by adding the "that's a joke" rider, there was a deliberate pointer at an insulting and racist interpretation and as such, inviting agreement or perhaps implying UKIP support for such slurs.It reminds me, although it is not the same as, those people who start by saying " Not being rude/racist/personal/ whatever. . . " and then go on to make pretty rude/racist/personal comments !

What cartoon? Are you posting on the wrong thread? Have I moved into a different universe?

I agree with what grumppa says in his most recent post.

Though having said that , we are back to the Charlie stuff
I so think that they had and have intent.

And dont think that they can use context[ a so called cartoon magazine] as an excuse and reason.

I agree with thatbags.
It isnt context, it is intent.

But context is everything, isn't it? thatbags

Yes, eloethan, but you also suggested we should avoid phrases or words that might give offence. I quote:"It is not "PC madness" to avoid using language in a way that might be insulting to other people."

I think the two things you said are somewhat contradictory. I was trying to clarify the proper distinction between them. That is all. I think these things important and that clarity is essential where freedom of expression is concerned.

As Galen remarked,there would have been no confusion in the East Midlands where I grew up as we also said of blunt speaking people "he doesn't just call it a spade,he calls it a b****y shovel". No hidden meaning there.

It is very easy to use a time-hallowed phrase such as calling a spade a spade, and then realise that its employment might have been unfortunate at that particular moment and in that particular context. One's reaction might well be on the lines of 'Oops, no joke intended'. Nothing objectionable has been implied, but the speaker realises the inference that may be drawn, tries to correct the situation, and only makes things worse.

thatbags I expressly said that "calling a spade a spade" is not in any way, shape or form racist. As absent said, the phrase dates back to the 1st century BC - long before black people were being called "spades".

It is the context in which it was used and the fact that the person who used it then said "it's a joke" which indicates that another meaning was implied.

I am not a fan of NF..... but as Armarmai writes earlier on in the thread..As the man was referring to NF its really stretching to interpret this as non racist..I was trying to point out that when JV said it no-one would have even thought of a double meaning.

I don't think anybody with half a jot of common sense has a problem with the spade a spade saying when it has its traditional meaning of being straightforward to the extent of being somewhat blunt and nor should it. In this particular incident, there is the possibility of racist connotations, given Nigel Farage's attitude towards immigrants, and that is what has caused a certain amount of consternation. Equally, of course, the comment might have been ironic. None of this is clear – a storm in a mole hill, perhaps.

I thought that the best known use of the phrase was in The Importance of being Earnest, when Cecily says she calls a spade a spade, and Gwendolen replies that she has never seen a spade and that their social spheres must be very different (no copy of play to hand to check exact wording).

I suppose Wilde might see the joke if future productions had to substitute hoe for the sake of political correctness.

This could be compared to the time when Jeremy Clarkson was deemed racist for the "Slope on the bridge" comment. Not many people were aware that slope was a derogatory term but it was leapt on by a member if the PC brigade. It seems to me that if people are looking for something to be offended by they will find it.

I did not know before reading this thread that "calling a spade a spade" had ever been given a racist meaning. I have never used it in a way that gave it a racist meaning and I never shall but I shall use the expression in what I feel are appropriate contexts. If anyon calls me a racist for doing that, they need their head examining.

In short, one should avoid being racist, which is not the same as avoiding words or phrases someone somewhere may have used in a racist manner. It's not words that are the problem but how they are used.

I don't agree, eloethan. I do think it is PC madness, or at least cowardliness, to avoid using expressions that may cause offence to other people. It is the thin end of the wedge to unbalance people's freedom to speak their minds. Obviously I am not saying people should feel free to use phrases like "calling a spade a spade" in a racist way, only that people should be able to use such phrases or words in the way they've always been used and then not be accused of being racist even though other people may use the same phrases in racist ways. I think it's important to keep this distinction between racist intent and lack of racist intent.

Sorry all you Yorkists but the expression is not uniquely yours. It first appears in writing in Greece in the 1st century BC: "I call a fig a fig and a spade a spade".