I might vote Tory but that doesn't make me a bad person

I will put a hard-earned fiver towards a one-way ticket to whichever fascist state Lily Allen would like to move to.

I put forward a theory in answer to a premise that may or may not be true rosequartz. It is a shame that you feel the need to make personal remarks such as Your post comes across as rude, bigoted and very narrow-minded and, what I would like to say would be deleted.

A sad way to discuss anything and presumably tells us you find it easier to attack me personally than the argument. I think this says more about you than me.

"Why the hell can't people accept a democratic election took place and the people gave a mandate for government."
Well Pogs it is quite simple if you have a generation of young people who have seen their hopes and dreams squashed, who are heavily in debt (thanks to the government) who are working zero hours contracts for a wage they can't live on (thanks to the government) who have little or no hope of ever owning property or getting housing at a reasonable rent (thanks to the government) and who have little to lose. You really can't blame them if they demonstrate to express their dissatisfaction. I am appalled that they are dismissed as 'rent-a-mob'. There may be some activists amongst them but I think for the most part they are young people who can't take any more.
And I do have some experience of demonstrations I was in the anti-war march when Blair the warmonger ignored a peaceful expression of the views of thousands. Maybe these people thought they were not going to be ignored and maybe the huge police presence aggravated things.

I did not attack you personally and say that you were those things, but that your post came across as that.

You may be none of those things but your assertion that all Tory voters are as described in your previous post would appear to be a very narrow view.

What you said did not sound as if it was open for discussion, it sounded like a statement of fact not an offer to debate the motives and qualities of Tory voters.

In fact, I need not have posted what I did, just referred to the OP which is a probably a better description.

I think this says more about you than me
I have always thought that such a meaningless quote.

The OP said: I might vote Tory but that doesn't make me a bad person and I'm am really fed up of all the vitriol aimed at people like me. When did the country become so intolerant and judgmental? Why are we not allowed to hold different opinions? Debate is good and can achieve progress but insults just cause division.

None of this explains or clarifies kittylester's issues with this other than voting Tory not making her a bad person. There is no explanation of what vitriol, how she was categorising "people like me", other than as a Tory voter or in which way people had become "so intolerant and judgmental" other than by making her feel they thought she was "bad".

I just addressed the bit that was clear but the one thing I did say is that the groups that the press and people having discussions will characterise in a particular way, which is what the OP seemed to refer to, used a cartoon version of very few people within that group to describe the whole group. I specifically said that it is obvious that not all Tory voters are "bad" (whatever bad means in this context).

You seem to have decided to be personally offended by what I said and then aimed to give offence. I cannot stop you doing that but it does not mean that my theory - which is all it was - is any less valid.

I don't think those who voted Tory are 'bad' people and part of me understands why they might choose to vote for a party they consider will make the UK economically sound. I can even, on a bad day, understand why some people feel that cutting the Welfare Budget is very worthy, as there are some who deliberately use and abuse the system and bring out the latent fascist in me.

But something in me truly believes in the socialist principal that 'he ain't heavy, he's my brother' and the ideal that we can build a fairer society.

Principle!

trisher

I honestly do not believe that had for arguments sake Labour had won those who voted for a right wing party would have daubed shit on a WW11 war memorial or tried to block Downing Street or promote anarchy.

Just back from archery. gracesgran, I guess I just didn't understand your post then. Still don't so I'll just forget it

Good distinction, RQ. Pity more people don't make it.

For the third time, but just a bit this time, from what I said on another, very aimilar thread:

"..... as I have often said before ,on threads about religion and about politics, doesn't the effect it has on Gransnetters show just how divisive and unpleasant hare held views can be."

POGS Violent, threatening and criminal behaviour is not confined to those with left wing views - as history demonstrates only too well.

Eloethan

The difference is if it was done by a right wing organisation I would condemn them too.

Unlike it would appear a lot who are sanctioning their actions.

Who is sanctioning their actions?

Who has said their actions were justified?

AS I said there may be a few extremists who take tings too far. But the majority of demonstators didn't behave like this Pogs. So why focus on the actions of a dew

"VE Day veterans must be wondering what the hell they faught for. They sacrificed for freedom and democracy , look what is happening, makes you bloody weep."

Actually many of those who survived the conflict became strong socialists. They were the generation that established the NHS, the welfare state (from the cradle to the grave), nationalised the coal industry and the railways. If they are wondering anything it is probably what happened to the society we built with care for all and why the hell is it being sold off.

Could well be but I don't think they would appreciate it.

You agree with them I don't, simple as.

Just heard a Labour politician sounding like he belongs to this century. Peter Mandelson has come out(sic) to get them back on course.

Actually many of those who survived the conflict became strong socialists. They were the generation that established the NHS, the welfare state (from the cradle to the grave), nationalised the coal industry and the railways. If they are wondering anything it is probably what happened to the society we built with care for all and why the hell is it being sold off.

Actually, my DF was one of these. Dyed-in-the-wool socialist.

But after the disastrous days of Callaghan he voted for Maggie! And did not waver in his view.
I don't think he would have changed his mind now, either, if he had lived through the Blair/Brown years, although obviously I cannot speak for him.

Well Pogs it is quite simple if you have a generation of young people who have seen their hopes and dreams squashed, who are heavily in debt (thanks to the government) who are working zero hours contracts for a wage they can't live on (thanks to the government) who have little or no hope of ever owning property or getting housing at a reasonable rent (thanks to the government) and who have little to lose. You really can't blame them if they demonstrate to express their dissatisfaction. I am appalled that they are dismissed as 'rent-a-mob'. There may be some activists amongst them but I think for the most part they are young people who can't take any more

Can I ask a question about this please. And suggest something.
Why are they heavily in debt due to the government?

The suggestion is this. Though I am not sure you can do a thing about it.
I am thinking that the general public sit up and take notice if a demonstration is peaceful.
But if it turns violent, much if not all of the point is completely lost.
So, if you others you know want to march, I would suggest that the march is kept peaceful. Then I think that they work.

But some young people have a job now due to the Conservative government and the expansion of small businesses!

DH went very carefully through the manifestos (yes, I know, I was impressed too!) before he voted.

And he is not hard-hearted, he has a disabled cousin who is fine now, happier then she was 8 or so years ago.

I meant the huge amount owed in student loans, The average owed after a 3 year course is £35-£40 thousand. Many of them will never earn enough to pay off this.
I wish that peaceful marches could work, but as I said the biggest number of people ever seen marched against the Iraq war. There were hundreds along the route shouting support from office windows and shops and we were completely ignored.

I didn't march, trisher but I was with you in spirit.
It made no difference though.

There are always some who will bring disrepute on others. They are the unthinking, brainwashed, useless idiots who do nothing to further a cause.

The average owed now is £35-£40k. But I would imagine that those saving for a house would owe the average of £20k or whatever it is[when the fees were £3k and not £9k.

And either they are earning enough to pay begin to pay it back a little at a time, or not earning enough, and indeed as you say, may never pay it back.

But either way, and without meaning to sound harsh, they did have a choice. It was not forced upon them. They knew what the deal was.

And the £3k fees per year were under a Labour government as well as Tory.

I may have got some of my figures a bit out there, but you get my drift.
A government does not parent young people. They themselves and guardians make the choices.