Labour Party, Lib Dem Party - where to now.

Same answer really to whitewave.

Gracesgran. I am not one to go into semantics.

eloathan I can see exactly what you mean when you criticise my notion of aspiration. What I am trying to say is that it may be that the voter does not see the left as offering an optimistic enough future. Maybe the message that they were getting was that the rich should be taxed more - OK and the poor should not bear too much of the burden - OK but nothing was said to the middle lot - which is rather a large amount of the vote. Or at least perhaps I should say that the message was drowned out by the other two

varian There wasn't always a "United Kingdom" and its composition has been fairly changeable over the centuries. Things change and the people of a country may start to feel that their best interests are not being served by a particular arrangement- in the same way that various colonies throughout the world sought independence and various other countries split and formed new countries.

You say that Nicola Sturgeon wishes to "destroy the UK". That is a very emotive use of words. Others might say she, and many other Scottish people simply wish to revert to being an independent country.

Your definition, whitewave, includes the founding principles of the EU, about equality, justice and aspiration.
Like Gracesgran says, Scandinavian countries believe that, too, so maybe we should look to the Nordic system. Although the Danish relatives do not like paying high taxes in their own country, they do realise that in times of trouble, they are better off than we are here under our low-tax system.

I've been thinking about the fact that people vote for what they aspire to be rather than what they are so I'm pleased to see it isn't just me. Dare I say that it goes back to the you know what years which was also the time when people started living on credit so they could live a lifestyle that they couldn't actually afford.

Interesting article in yesterday's Guardian.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/10/scotland-independence-day-already-self-determination-legal-problems-vanish-england

"England could start taking itself in hand, while Scotland is quietly doing independence already. Devolution didn't hurt, did it? So relax, England! You'll feel so much better when it's over."

dj could you bung in about the founding principles of the EU in the EU thread if you have time please? Only you obviously know more than I do about that!

whitewave I wasn't criticising you or your views on aspiration. What I was trying to say was the word "aspiration" can mean many things to many people but it is often used in a quite narrow, self-interested way. Some people may not appear to have achieved much in their lives in a material sense but they may have contributed a great deal to the well being of others - and that was likely to have been their "aspiration".

Also, whilst I think it is important to have aspirations, I question whether, in the real world where many people are just living day-to-day in an endless battle to make their money go round, everybody has the same opportunity to even form aspirations, never mind achieve them.

eloathan yes I think those are the people that Labour were addressing at one end of the scale.

Have to leave this now - bum - off to my economics evening classes

Whitewave, I put a link to

www.europa.eu

on the EU thread. It gives all the information in easy to use chunks. I thought it would save you a lot of typing.

I expect you will stay saner than me soontobe. I keep digging to find out what things really mean and then wonder why - just why?.

Whitewave I agree; for me equality means equality of opportunity. They means each person gets according to their needs but does it mean that some will not get as much as would make a difference to them in order to make sure the opportunities are equal and is this measured just by money? Is there any other way a government could measure it?

Eloethan I think the Conservatives have done a very good job of reflecting Labour as the party of "welfare" - a much more pejorative word than benefits - and, sadly, Labour have not helped themselves with this as you infer. What I have noticed is that their rhetoric hasn't changed at all over the last few day. It may be difficult but they are still not talking to the general population.

I think you are right about aspiration - it varies so much and is not of our making. I get very riled by people who talk about how hard they have worked, inferring they should keep everything and only help those that they personally deem to be "deserving". Of course the current aim to demonise groups so that there are very few "deserving" makes them feel even better about keeping everything to themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe people should be aim to help themselves but the "I did it all myself" idea lacks so much empathy. "Understanding that you truly can't take credit for your successes nor truly blame others for their failures, will humble you and make you more compassionate. Empathy is intuitive but is also something you can work on intellectually."

One thing is certain, even if everyone achieved all they were able to aspire to we would still need to care for some in society - or be a very different society which we may not care to be part of.

I expect you will stay saner than me soontobe. I keep digging to find out what things really mean and then wonder why - just why?.

I gave up that a while back when I saw what it does to some people.

Eloethan. Do you know many people who earn the average UK wage of £24,000?

oops. As regards the some people bit, I was not at all referring to people on gransnet.

Cameron has held his first cabinet meeting, calling them the real party of the working people. So what was wrong with Labour being the party of the working people?

He has also put a Tory MP in charge of the Northern Powerhouse, despite the fact that all the councils were already working together under a leader of one of the councils. Nothing like a good bit of feudalism to stir up the natives.

Yes, I heard Cameron calling his government the real party of the working people. Did I mishear, or was he really banging on the table as he did so, in the style of public school boys

Not him, all of them, Iam, as he walked in. Even the women. I noticed the Education minister doing it. I didn't think girls public schools did that.

Just read a these posts and Anniebach's assertion that TB brought about peace in N. Ireland. That was mostly the work of the late great Mo Mowlam who did all the negotiation, kept all the parties talking and tied up the deal only to be upstaged by TB when it came to the final announcement. Which make me think of the great politicians who have never been party leaders but who brought to their work, honesty, integrity, sincerity and passion. Tony Ben and Mo Mowlam being the two I immediately remember. Oh and I did think Charles Kennedy was so honest about his problem and a much more charismatic leader than Nick. Feeling really old and disillusioned, can't think of anyone I even admire slightly now!

Yes trisher, she did the work and he took the glory.
What a mcp

What about Hilary Benn, trisher?

One thing is certain, even if everyone achieved all they were able to aspire to we would still need to care for some in society - or be a very different society which we may not care to be part of

That is an excellent thought put very well Gracesgran

I do think that most politicians of all parties would subscribe to that.

I wish I was so sure rosequartz. I would like to be, I am not a natural cynic.

I'm not sure about Hilary Benn durhamjen. He certainly doesn't have the huge personality his father had, and I think he aligned himself with Tony Blair too much. I would like to see him step forward and become something like his father.

It seems to me that the general opinion seems to be
1:- it is the SNP's fault England voted for the Tories
2:- it is the snp's fault that no one in Scotland voted Labour
3:-it is the SNP to blame for the total collapse of the lib dems
4:- despite a campaign fairly faught on policies the SNP are only interested in separation from the UK
5:- the SNP had 50%of the total votes in the seats they stood in but still this is unfair for poor old ukip who had no where never as good a percentage despite standing in over 300 seats. Surely it is easier to get a larger number of votes all together if you stand in six times more seats.

Now if I have got this general feeling correct I think this may explain the rise of the SNP.

Some good points Dotsmam. It occurs to me that UKIP made the mistake of going for votes rather than seats. My own MP has an impregnable Conservative majority, but I saw more UKIP canvassers and received more of their leaflets than anyone else's (Labour didn't even put a leaflet through the door). With a better directed effort they might have achieved more seats with fewer votes. What a mercy that they didn't think of it.

Labout always used to say working class, not working people.
Very different thing altogether in my book.