The EU and how it works

ARGUMENTS FOR STAYING IN THE EU

1.JOBS - 3.4m jobs directly linked to EU membership
2 EXPORTS AND INVESTMENT - UK exports 50% of total to EU. Over 300K companies and 74% of British Exporters operate in other EU markets.
USA and Asian and other EU firms build factories in UK because it is part of single market.
3 TRADE - EU negotiates trade agreements. If UK was outside of the EU it would have to renegotiate all trade deals on its own.
EU is the worlds largest trading block £11tr. Outside the EU the UK would not be a high priority for other countries - it could not offer such a large market.
4 CONSUMER CLOUT - UK families enjoy lower mobile roaming charges, lower credit card fees, cheaper flights and proper compensation for flight that are delayed/cancelled. These sort of benefits cannot be achieved by the UK alone.
5 CLEAN ENVIRONMENT - Through commonly agreed EU standards, national governments have achieved improvements to the quality of air, (think UK getting told off for our air quality) rivers and beaches (think blue flag)
6 POWER TO CURB MULTI-NATIONALS -The EU has taken on giants like Microsoft, Samsung and Toshiba for unfair competition. The UK would find this difficult in doing this alone.
7 FREEDOM TO WORK AND LIVE ABROAD AND EASY TRAVEL
1.4m Brits live abroad in EU. More than 14500 students took part in the EU's Erasmus student exchange scheme in 2012-13. Driving licence valid in all EU countries.
8 PEACE AND DEMOCRACY - EU helped secure peace among previously warring Western European Nations. Helped consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet Bloc countries and helped preserve peace in the Balkans since end of Balkan War. Plays an important role in the UN
9 EQUAL PAY AND NON-DISCRIMINATION - Equal pay or men and women is enshrined in EU law as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation.
10 INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD - As 28 democracies, and as the worlds biggest market we are strong when we work together. Britain is represented in many international organizations in joint EU delegations which gives the UK more influence than it would alone. The EU plays a major role in climat change, the environment, energy, security and our relationship with the developing world. These are issues which are larger than any one nation state, and the UK acting on it's own would be largely ignored by others e.g.USA
11 CUTS RED TAPE FOR BUSINESS
12 FIGHTING CRIME - European Arrest Warrant- replace long extradition procedures.
Eurojust helps UK work with other EU countries to tackle international crime such as smuggling, people trafficking and money laundering.
13 RESEARCH FUNDING - UK is second largest beneficiary of EU research funds. The UK government expects future funding to constitute a vital source of income for out universities and companies.
14. FOUR FREEDOMS - Treaty of Rome
Free movement of goods, services, capital and people. One of the most important charters for freedom the world has ever seen.

Thank you whitewave, you deserve a good rest and for all your hard work!

Brilliant. Thank you so much.

OK folks we are finally getting near the end HOORAY I can hear you all saying unless you can think of anything I have forgotten.

The last stuff will be about the arguments for and against and as I will be using all sorts of evidence/information this comes with a warning that it will not be an objective piece of work but biased in both directions - if that is possible

iam64 Take it in chunks just as I have written it easier to assimilate then.

MONETARY AND POLITICAL INTEGRATION

Taken and reworded from a report produced by the IMF

Eurozone is the monetary union of the EU of 19 of the member states. Other states (except UK and Denmark) will be obliged to join once they reach the criteria to do so. So far no state has left and there is no provisions to do so or to be expelled. Monetary policy is as we know the responsibility of the ECB. As we are also aware the eurozone has been for some time in crises especially since the collapse of Lehman Brothers.

In order to create greater stability the IMF see the best way forward is towards greater integration both monetary and politically. However this would not sit well with the UK and maybe others.

For a number of years there has been an argument for an 2 speed Europe. This means that the 19 should accelerate towards greater political union whilst the remaining 9 including the UK would have no plans for integration but who wish to play a full and willing part in the EU project.

I've just found this thread - thank you so much whitewave. I've read it through quickly, after a busy day and can't say I've retained all the relevant information. Like a number of others who have posted thanks to you, I plan to read it again, more slowly and try to retain the information. It's great to have the facts - complicated and slightly overwhelming as they are

It is a question that has been bugging me for a couple of days now so thought I would answer it quickly before I move on

WHY DID THE UK JOIN THE EU IN THE FIRST PLACE

Briefly - in the 1950's the UK's per capita GDP was 1/2 larger than all the other 6 EU member states. But by the 1970's it was 10% below and declining, and we were looking at a relatively large block of nations with trade tariffs etc imposed on all countries outside the block. After we joined the EU or Common Market as it was then our declined stopped and indeed we are now one of the wealthier member states.

I have just downloaded 'Europe : In or Out. Everything you Need to Know by David Charter. It's 99p on Kindle. I am hoping it will put forward the pros and cons in a suitably easy to understand manner for the likes of me!

Interestingly, EU citizens living in this country do not have the right to vote in the referendum, yet. It is still being discussed.

SOME FACTS AND FIGURES

This one comes with a health warning as they are only estimates (the best I could find)

1.8m Brits live in another EU country - which includes
1m in Spain largely retired ( can hear the Spanish moaning about the pressure on their health and social services - especially as they are more in the do-da than we are)
400K in other EU countries and retired
The rest all working

2.34m EU citz. live and work in UK.

So in a way we gain as most of our UK citz are retired and so contribute very little to the country in which they live and are probably a negative, whereas the EU citz living in the UK are contributing taxes, skills and productivity we know to be a positive .

The next lot of figures come from HMRC

For the month of April 2015
Imported between 15 - 20bn from the EU
Exported between 10 - 15bn

The largest trade deficit is with France
Largest positive gap is with Germany and Belgium

With regard to services - these are a significant and represent a substantial level of exports and have grown year on year.

Overall the EU is the dominant market by far with 50% of both imports and exports of our total overseas trade.

This is aided by the free movement (no tarifffs, duty etc) of goods and services and of course people as business will see them as units just as they see commodities.

OK did you find your answer soon?

Next is the so called DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT - which is a mega subject so I am only going to outline some of the issues but sufficient for us to understand the potential problem. Most of my information has come from the House of Commons Library report dated Apl 2014

This is the idea that the governance of the EU in some ways lacks democratic legitimacy.
So - we know that in the EU there are two sources of democratic legitimacy - the European Parliament with directly elected MEPS , and the Councils representing the peoples of individual states. However the European Commission the legislative body, has no directly elected representatives. Commissioners are as we already know delegated by each member state.
This is the principal democratic illegitimacy of the EU.

This has been recognised by the EU and over time a number of constitutional changes in various Treaties have been introduced to increase perceived democratic legitimacy.
However undoubtedly the low turnout at the EU elections can certainly be cited as weakening the democratic legitimacy of the European Parliament, indeed some argue that the low turnout reflects the perceived lack of legitimacy by the voters.

Listed below are the aspects of perceived democratic deficit
1 Commission unelected
2 European Parliament is weak compared to the Councils and Commission.
3 European Parliament not really "European" election and turnout is low
4.EU is too distant from the voters
5 EU adopts policies not supported by a majority of EU citizens
6 Court of Justice makes the law rather than interpreting it
7 Lack of Transparency in the Commission
8 EU Law had primacy over national law and constitutions.

So what is to be done?

There is talk of another EU Treaty reform.
Some say the only way to make the EU democratic is to have further union, creating a United States of Europe with the Commission as government and 2 chambers i.e European Parliament and the Senate of Member States. Member States like Germany would argue for this.

For others including the UK, the way forward is to allow member states to loosen the EU framework in more policy areas and thereby preserve national sovereignty. National parliaments have legitimacy at national level, this needs to be transferred to the EU stage.
The H. o C. European Scrutiny Committee suggest the re-establishment of a national veto of EU proposals.
What can be done about falling voter support. If the EU has legitimacy, it is failing to attract trust or interest.
Undoubtedly a number of EU member states are actively considering reform. This where we are with our current government and David Cameron is hoping to be able to persuade the EU and later the UK electorate of the case.

If you look on www.fullfact.org under immigration, you might find your answers, soon, to that and many more questions.

Am I right in thinking that when migrants go from the UK to Europe, they are largely going to jobs lined up.
But when migrants come here, some of them havent got jobs lined up?
Are there EU figures for that at all?

I think somehow we should keep this thread readily available for future reference. I am definitely going to set some time aside to study it, and try to remember it.

I haven't got time atm to go into this but I will be interested later on, so I must remember the title of the thread otherwise I will never find it again.

I know you are jing I think as I type the posts "Bet jing can't wait"!

I haven't lost interest! I am all a-gog.

Good - oh - I will keep going then - busy today so may not post until this evening - I think DH is of the opinion that I spending too much time on the computer - but he wouldn't dare say!!! Must say I m getting a bit obsessed though - dreamed about it last night now that is sad.

I certainly hadn't lost interest, whitewave, and am grateful for the information you've provided.

I've also been impressed by your skilfull deflection of attempts to sidetrack you into chatty side issues!

They all sound very interesting to me.
You're doing a good job. Carry on.

Actually by now I expect most of you have totally lost interest but if there are any grans out there still with me I wondered if there is anything you would particularly like me to look at? I am going to look at in the next few days.
The democratic gap
sovereignty
corrective mechanism
The eurozone
Greater political integration
What Mr Cameron is hoping to achieve
Arguments for and against.

Who's likely to forget that?

Quite like to see Brian May as an MP.

Yes, whitewave, that's the bit that people forget, that UK citizens have the same rights when they go to other EU countries to find work.