The EU and how it works

It was made clear earlier on that this was a thread for information, not discussion or debate. If you insist on derailing it, that's up to you.

I think you will find I was asking whitewave for information. Whitewave mentioned human rights in one of her posts.
Hadn't realised I wasn't allowed to comment on whitewave's thread. Am I not part of "us all"?

This is a thread to give information about the EU and how it works.

There's another thread about the Human Rights Act durhamjen.
Post your concerns on that instead of disrupting whitewave's thread which is informing us all, regardless of political persuasion.

It's not contentious. Just asking for information.
The Human Rights Act was brought in because people had to go to the ECJ to enforce their rights, as whitewave said. The Human Rights Act meant that UK citizens could bring their problems to courts in Britain. It made it simpler and quicker and freed up the ECJ.
So why is there a need to get rid of the Human Rights Act?

You're not allowed to be contentious on this thread!

Whitewave, the bit about fundamental rights; is that why the Labour Government brought in the Human Rights Act, and why the Tories want rid of it now?

That's good to know. We should have a bit of clout when it comes to renegotiation.

dumplingNo our net contribution takes account of the rebate. What I would like to add - this is really a basic figure - there are other factors that can be taken into account but I haven't been able to quantify them for the same year, so they wouldn't be correct. It doesn't really make much difference though this is really to give us an idea of our contributions and the fact that we are the second largest. This is in my opinion a good thing as it shows that we are doing relatively well compared to other EU countries, but others may not agree with that.

Our contribution figure (making us second largest) is before the rebate is taken into account I assume.

HOW MUCH DO WE PAY THE EU AND HOW MUCH DO WE GET BACK

Figures based on 2013 budget. £

Gross payments 17184m
Les rebate -3324
Less public sector receipts -5237
Net contribution 8624

Notes - public sector receipts are paid to the UK government for things like rural development, agriculture, etc. They are then doled out almost entirely to the private sector.
Some payments from the EU are not included in the above figures as they are paid directly to private sector approx £925m

In 2011 the UK was the second largest net contributor with the biggest being Germany. The country receiving the most is Poland.

If anyone is wondering most of my facts etc are gleaned from the H OF C library as I am not going to use any media stuff as they usually have an axe to grind and the so called facts may have a bias or slant.

Thanks for this lot ww, I've photo'd it onto my iPad so I can go over it again (and again) til I get some of it through my thick brain.

There seems to be a lot of pontification with no real result.

Heart not in the Corrective mechanism at the moment so wouldn't do it justice so thought I would start on

CHARTER OF THE PRINCIPLES OF THE EU -

1. Recognises fundamental rights - I have a feeling that we have sort of opted out of this but need to look further into it. Right found it. The UK secured a protocol in the Lisbon Treaty, which prevents the ECJ from making judgements in the UK on any inconsistency with the EU principle. The UK's reason was that they were concerned that there would be a stream of people going to the ECJ to enforce their rights. However there is an argument as to whether in fact this protocol is legally binding and a report recently produced by the H. of C. EU Scrutiny Committee recognises this confusion, but didn't come up with any answers as far as I can tell..
2. Proportionality
3. Legal certainty
4.Equality before the law
5. Subsidiarity

I know that you are reading it though jing

I definitely need to know those calculations. Could you list them please. in detail. Thank you. #ajobworthdoing....

Waiting for DH to return with car so thought I would just put this on

UK REBATE

This was finally negotiated by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, after years of discussion with various UK governments.
Reason - at the time a high proportion of the EU budget (80%) went on the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). UK benefited less than other EU countries as our agricultural industry was much smaller. Also at the time the UK was the second poorest country in the EU. (didn't know that)

The way the rebate is calculated is a bit complicated, so thought I would leave the calculations out unless someone is desperate to know!!! It amounts to getting back 2/3rds of UK contributions that exceed overall EU expenditure.

BUT the overall effect is that our rebate means that other countries have to pay more to make up the loss in the overall EU budget - doesn't go down too well as you may imagine!

Argument for removing the Rebate

1. Only 40% of the EU budget now goes to the CAP
2.UK no longer the 2nd poorest country by a substantial amount
3.New members of the EU need to be brought up to scratch with regards to their economy - this benefits all EU members and the money UK gets should go towards that, as the new members represent a substantial expense.
4. Rebate distorts UK funding as we only have to negotiate 1/3 of grants as we get the other lot back.
5. Many EU grants are conditional on the member country finding funds fro local resources - this doesn't affect UK to the same extent.

Argument for Rebate continuing;-

Before I list them it is worth understanding that Tony Blair negotiated a veto on any attempt of the EU to stop our rebate unless and until such time as they reform the CAP. He was on a promise by the EU that they would do so and agreed that it was illogical for us to continue to benefit from a rebate whilst new members were costing the EU so much so agreed to have our rebate cut by 20% for a short period of time 2007 - 2013 whilst the CAP was reformed. This never took place. Never the less TB accepted that the rebate was objectively unjustified. This has never been accepted by the Conservatives and one can expect them to continue to take a hard line.

1. CAP distorts the EU budget and has implications for free and fair trade.
2. Without rebate UK would pay more than other comparable wealthy countries as the structure of our economy is different to others.
3. CAP encourages uneconomic farmers.

NEXT - the whizzy world of the Corrective Mechanism

OK we are on the last knockings with regard the structure

COURT OF JUSTICE - not to be confused with European Court of HR or European Court of Justice ( now I am confused!)
Sits in Luxumberg and oversees all EU Law.
I can give you a personal example of this court. Whilst at work I, in the name of the British Government would give out rulings with regard to VAT (see how the EU is financed - coming next) and companies may challenge that ruling. They may then have recourse to the Court of Justice - some will be won by our government and some will be lost to the business's advantage.

CENTRAL BANK sits in Frankfurt - est. 1998.
One of the worlds most important banks.
Capital stock owned by all 28 member states.
Main objective - to maintain price stability
Basic task -- define and implement the monetary policy, deals with foreign exchange.
Has shareholders and stock capital of 5bn euro held by the national central banks e.g. Bank of England. The shares are not transferable or used as collateral.

EUROPEAN COURT OF AUDITORS - does what it says on the tin

AGENCIES - found these quite interesting!

These are de-centralised and sit in every country in the EU. I have listed a small example of the sort of agencies they are

European development and vocational training
" innovation and Technology
" Training foundation
" Food safety
" Maritime safety
" Medicine Agency this sits in the UK

There are a lot of others.

OTHER BODIES - Investment Bank, Ombusesman etc

FOLKS - if anyone is still with me - this ends the Structure of the EU.

NOW TO THE MORE INTERESTING STUFF

HOW THE EU IS FINANCED.

EU financial budget is around 1% of the total of all member states wealth.

6% is used for admin. 94% used for policies.

The EU gets its money largely from 3 sources.

1. Member States contributions based on % of Gross National Income. This is capped at 1.23%
2. Import duties on goods from outside the EU.
3. %of VAT adjusted. Remember before VAT we had purchase tax? VAT is a European tax.

Next I will look at how the UK negotiated a rebate and how that works. But that is for another time - only I have mother to attend to today!

I've only just found this thread. Thanks for starting this whitewave, it could well be very helpful next year to be able to refer back to this and have at least a fighting chance of seeing through the information overload - and bias - from the in/out campaigns.

Show it to your grandchildren, jingl. After all, it will affect them.

jing you a--s!

oh please no

Perhaps someone can keep bumping this thread so that we can refer back to it nearer the time.

{wine} is wearing off so this is the last lot

TREATIES - MOST IMPORTANT I forgot to mention them

These are international treaties between EU and member states that set out the EU constitution. They also establish various EU institutions. How the EU functions etc.

Before we leave this on the Commission I thought it would be useful to list the areas that the UK has opted out from various treaties. Surprisingly given all the palaver over the years there are only 4 areas from which the UK has opted out and then 1 is in question.

In general all EU laws are valid throughout the EU

The UK opted out of the following;-

1.Schengen Agreement - this abolished border controls. So presumably goods and persons can travel freely within the EU until they get to us - we still therefore need our passports for travelling to and from the EU.

2. Economic Monetary Union - doesn't need any explanation really. Just to note that it was secured under the Maastricht Treaty. I remember Mrs Thatcher getting her knickers in a twist (if I dare mention her undergarments) over this.

3. Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. -Part of the Lisbon Treaty. the UK seems to have twiddled around a bit with this. It hasn't fully opted out - - but was concerned that the charter might be used to alter British labour laws - especially relating to strikes. I am still not terribly clear whether we have opted out or not - my inclination is to say probably not.

4. Area of Freedom, justice and security - Treaty of Amsterdam and Lisbon
This covers all sorts of areas under the banner, I can list them if you want but at this stage I thought it enough to just to get a handle on opt outs

UK has a flexible opt-out of all police and criminal justice legislation. Although it has subsequently opted in to some measures

LATEST NEWS - this is what David Cameron is using to get out of taking in any refugees rescued at sea. under charter 36 of the Lisbon Treaty.

Just found this thread, thank you to those who are doing the research for us. I remember the last referendum and how difficult it was to find clear information which wasn't skewed to try and persuade you to a particular view. Whenever they start bandying numbers around I remind myself of the old saying about "lies, damned lies and statistics"!

I shall look forward to learning some unbiased information.

So that's why the UK didn't want Juncker. He has the legislative power.