The EU and how it works

OK folks we are finally getting near the end HOORAY I can hear you all saying unless you can think of anything I have forgotten.

The last stuff will be about the arguments for and against and as I will be using all sorts of evidence/information this comes with a warning that it will not be an objective piece of work but biased in both directions - if that is possible

Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Thank you whitewave, you deserve a good rest and for all your hard work!

ARGUMENTS FOR STAYING IN THE EU

1.JOBS - 3.4m jobs directly linked to EU membership
2 EXPORTS AND INVESTMENT - UK exports 50% of total to EU. Over 300K companies and 74% of British Exporters operate in other EU markets.
USA and Asian and other EU firms build factories in UK because it is part of single market.
3 TRADE - EU negotiates trade agreements. If UK was outside of the EU it would have to renegotiate all trade deals on its own.
EU is the worlds largest trading block £11tr. Outside the EU the UK would not be a high priority for other countries - it could not offer such a large market.
4 CONSUMER CLOUT - UK families enjoy lower mobile roaming charges, lower credit card fees, cheaper flights and proper compensation for flight that are delayed/cancelled. These sort of benefits cannot be achieved by the UK alone.
5 CLEAN ENVIRONMENT - Through commonly agreed EU standards, national governments have achieved improvements to the quality of air, (think UK getting told off for our air quality) rivers and beaches (think blue flag)
6 POWER TO CURB MULTI-NATIONALS -The EU has taken on giants like Microsoft, Samsung and Toshiba for unfair competition. The UK would find this difficult in doing this alone.
7 FREEDOM TO WORK AND LIVE ABROAD AND EASY TRAVEL
1.4m Brits live abroad in EU. More than 14500 students took part in the EU's Erasmus student exchange scheme in 2012-13. Driving licence valid in all EU countries.
8 PEACE AND DEMOCRACY - EU helped secure peace among previously warring Western European Nations. Helped consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet Bloc countries and helped preserve peace in the Balkans since end of Balkan War. Plays an important role in the UN
9 EQUAL PAY AND NON-DISCRIMINATION - Equal pay or men and women is enshrined in EU law as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation.
10 INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD - As 28 democracies, and as the worlds biggest market we are strong when we work together. Britain is represented in many international organizations in joint EU delegations which gives the UK more influence than it would alone. The EU plays a major role in climat change, the environment, energy, security and our relationship with the developing world. These are issues which are larger than any one nation state, and the UK acting on it's own would be largely ignored by others e.g.USA
11 CUTS RED TAPE FOR BUSINESS
12 FIGHTING CRIME - European Arrest Warrant- replace long extradition procedures.
Eurojust helps UK work with other EU countries to tackle international crime such as smuggling, people trafficking and money laundering.
13 RESEARCH FUNDING - UK is second largest beneficiary of EU research funds. The UK government expects future funding to constitute a vital source of income for out universities and companies.
14. FOUR FREEDOMS - Treaty of Rome
Free movement of goods, services, capital and people. One of the most important charters for freedom the world has ever seen.

ARGUMENTS FOR LEAVING THE EU - BREXIT I must say that these arguments don't seem so "put together" as the other lot.Perhaps as time goes on they will improve.

1 MAKE STRONGER TRADE DEALS - with other nations. Be able to establish bi-lateral agreements with a fast growing export market like China, Singapore, Brazil, and India though the World Trade Organization.
2 SPEND UK RESOURCES - (presently through EU membership) in the UK to the advantage of our citizens
3 CONTROL OUR NATIONAL BORDERS
4. RESTORE BRITAIN'S special legal system
5. De-regulate the EU's costly mass of laws
6, Make major savings for UK consumers
7 Improve the UK economy and generate more jobs
8. Regenerate UK's fisheries.
9 Save the NHS from EU threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU and to reduce welfare payments for EU citirens.
10. Restore UK customs and traditions.
11. There would be a jobs boom when businesses are freed from U regulation.
12. UK would save billions in membership fees and end the hidden tariff paid by UK taxpayers when goods are exported to the EU
13 UK remains part of NATO and the UN security council and a nuclear power, with a powerful global voice in its own right
14 Major shot in the arm for UK democracy, as we would regain our sovereignty.

THE END

And...breathe!

Thanks, whitewave.

No mention of NHS in reasons for staying in EU; saving it from TTIP?

DJ I think that this could be over to all the grans to put their pennyworth in and add to the in's and out debate from now - do you think that a good idea?

Just to say that none of it is my opinion/words in the in/out debate I copied and condensed it. So if there is anything left out it was because I didn't find it. Or at least missed it.

Good idea, whitewave. I think you've done your bit, thanks a lot.
So just simple reasons to stay in or reasons to leave.
With evidence?
Do not know how you managed it, being so objective.

You've done a great job, whitewave. Nit-picking can be done either on this thread or another, but I applaud your commitment!

If we do not do it on this thread, whitewave, the thread will get lost, and others will have to search for it. Shame after all your hard work.

So, as said above,

Reason for staying in;
protection for NHS from TTIP.

One thing that this exercise has has persuaded me is that I felt ambivalent about migrants and did not quite grasp how much they contributed fiscally to the UK and how this goes towards supporting the likes of retired folk and others. I am now of the opinion that the issue about migrants is a red herring and it would be relatively easy to change peoples' mindset if the media/government so wished.

Thank you so much whitewave for all your work and for managing to remain objective.

I plan to set aside a quiet hour to re - read this. I voted to join the EU and remain committed to this country staying in Europe. I have, like many people, been anxious about the impact on public services of the open borders policy. I read the comments about that with interest. Thanks again

Agreed, whitewave.
It always surprises me when people I know show they are anti immigration. I just cannot understand it at all. But I do not want to start arguments.
I just say so you think ... should go back home, do you? Oh, no that's different.

No matter how much you say that migrants contribute to the economy, the newspapers always win in their arguments, because most of them do not give those statistics.
Many migrants also do not live up to their work potential. They are often much better qualified than their equivalents in the workforce, because they are willing to take most jobs.

Thank you whitewave for taking on this mammoth task.
Like Iam64, I voted to join the Common Market and I have never regretted it. I know people who voted against joining who have long since felt relieved that their view didn't prevail.
I think there will be many GN members grateful to be able to refer to this thread over the coming months.

Thank you whitewave for a very objective and informative series of posts.
Should the referendum go the wrong way (ie out) that could be instrumental in triggering a second independence referendum in Scotland.
If Scotland chooses to be part of the EU it would be outrageous to be dragged out unwillingly by RUK.
Depending on your feelings about Scottish independence this could influence your vote in either direction.
Scottish parliament and EU are both anti-TTIP.

Yes my worse nightmare is - UK comes out of the EU - this triggers another referendum in Scotland and they leave the UK and then we are left with a rump of a Kingdom, that is so small it matters to absolutely no-one in the world and our economy really struggles,

Agreed, whitewave, although if I lived in Scotland I would have voted for SNP, if only to stop being ruled by the Westminster elite.
Scotland is the same size as Denmark, and they manage to live quite comfortably within the EU rules.

Yes we would probably OK in the EU if Scotland left us, but we would struggle outside of the EU I reckon.

dj and whitwave I think we agree on that, but, bearing in mind that there are people who want to be rid of both Scotland and the EU (eg ukip) , I can see problems ahead there.

Thanks for your posts "whitewave" - very helpful and informative.

My husband and I disagree on the EU issue. On balance, I think we should stay in but I do have several misgivings about the way it operates. It seems to be such a distant organisation and very few people - including myself - are aware of its day-to-day operations. There also appears to be a greater opportunity, given the size of the organisation, for corruption and misuse of power. However, on the plus side, I think it offers more protection for consumers, employees and the environment - though presumably that could change.

It seems to me that whether you are part of something like the EU or whether you try to be as self-contained and self-determining as possible, there are dangers in all systems. Nationalism can be small minded and intolerant and globalism can destroy national identity and culture. What is really important is the quality of the people elected to power and that is presumably dependent on the population being properly educated and having a good grasp of what is happening in their own countries and worldwide.

Hopefully we have made a start to educate ourselves eloethan

Yes, you're right whitewave but it very much depends on individuals or groups finding out for themselves. When the referendum comes round, both "sides" will be pushing a skewed view, rather than presenting actual facts. A bit like a general election I suppose, but leaving the EU has much more far-reaching implications than electing one party or another for a five year term has.

Having said that, I think it's unlikely that we'll leave because it appears that most businesses are in favour of membership - and it seems these days it's what businesses want that counts. Even though I'm marginally in favour of staying in, I don't like the idea that powerful businesses are likely to use every scare tactic in the book to get a yes vote.