What a difficult decision to make.

Alarmist, as you say, soontobe.

What the article is actually saying is that the number of assisted suicides has increased in recent years in countries where it's been legalised. Which is only to be expected, bearing in mind that the overall number of deaths will have increased anyway because of larger populations.

Loopylou . I wasn't blaming you at all for the title just angry at whoever did come up with that one, I think, could have thought up something that would explain the Bill more clearly

Should have explained my post more

Yes, it works fine in Switzerland but we live in a country that allowed the situation in Stafford Hospital to go on for years; applied the Liverpool Care Pathway inappropriately; and faces years of government-imposed 'austerity'.

This latest case, and the chap in the Terry Pratchett documentary, really does test my resolve as I think it's tragic that these men felt they had to die early whilst they had some control, and not wait until they were totally incapacitated and be doomed to a terrible existence.

But just as I'm against capital punishment, even though murderers commit the most awful crimes, I have to stick to what I think is for the greater good and not support state-assisted dying.

, thank you Agus, thought I made a blooper!

If only End of Life Care was truly as intended.......... Things are slowly improving but for those making the ultimate decision there is no support here

I really don't think it's an issue of the greater good . Who defines that? All I know us that if I thought that I could wake up tomorrow paralysed from th neck down , I would want to have the option of ending my life if I chose. My family and friends who love me dearly would want me to have the choice as sad as they would be for me to die. What greater good would be served by keeping me alive ? Who would change my nappies, feed me, turn me, dress my bed sores?

No blooper *Loupyloo and I do agree, having witnessed End of life Care at close quarters, I sincerely hope I am never in the situation whereby I have to be 'cared' for.

It's one of my biggest fears too.

I just fervently hope it'll never happen.

My next door neighbour with terminal cancer died in excruciating pain in hospital. His wife's last memories are of him screaming in agony let me die let me die let me die. For whose good was that? And it's simply not true that terminal pain can always be controlled. It's just not true .

I can't see end of life 'care' improving anytime soon either.

How insulting it is to the general public to deny us the right, if we wish, to choose to end our own suffering if it becomes unbearable?

I can't see what capital punishment has to do with this issue, BTW.

I couldn't agree more Ana. How dare we be denied the right to chose?

I agree with you too, GrannyTwice, about pain control. That's another fallacy always expounded as a reason against assisted dying.

Sometimes pain can be kept under control, but all too often, horrifyingly, it can't unless the dying patient is kept virtually comatose.

(think I'd better get off this thread before we become a clique, GT! )

I mentioned capital punishment because it's on a par, in my mind, with legalizing the right to die.

Both involve major conflicts of emotions and test the resolve of supporters and opponents, and would require in-depth parliamentary debate and changes of law.

On the surface, many people would hang murderers just as many would support the right to die, but fine-tuning the practicalities and the final decision-making into law wouldn't be so easy.

Other countries have done it River and have not gone to hell in a handcart. The problem here is that it's not seriously on the agenda - most of our politicians (Charlie Falconer being an honourable exception)are just too cowardly to allow a proper debate. We are being treated like children - why on earth can the Swedes, or people in Oregon have choices we can't ? Of course it's not easy to legislate but it's certainly not impossible. And as Ana said I really don't understand where the issue of capital punishment comes in to the debate. And what's certainly not fair is that the choice is there for those with the resources to go to Switzerland or for people who have the contacts to be able to get hold of the means to end their lives.

It works really well in Switzerland, because all the safety precautions are there to ensure NO pressure is born to bear on the person making the choice- with several interviews with trained volunteers, with the patient alone- any hesitation or doubt, and it just won't go ahead- and reflection time and further 1 to 1 interviews done at a later stage- with EXIT. With EXIT, people can die in their own home, bed, lounge, garden if private, with or without family and friends, with the music you choose, or silence... just how YOU and aou alone choose. Although the doctor/s is consulted and kept informed, they do not take any rôle in the deed- and I think this is much better. The Law has just been changed so that nursing homes cannot refuse if a resident decides to ask for help there. When my mother asked, the OAP home refused. I was going to move her back to our home after our move- but she died 2 weeks before we arrived- having lived a miserable life she hated for years.

This happens with Dignitas too (eg private interviews to ensure so pressure is being put on a patient).

One of the wonderful thing about EXIT- is that once the person knows they will be able to end their life should it become unbearable- can this relax and enjoy the days, weeks and months they have left- peaceful in the knowledge the choice will be theirs. Tragically, as in Mr Spector's case- he had to do the deed much earlier than needed- in order to ensure he was able to travel. Tragic and so so sad. My heart goes to his family.

Capital punishment has NOTHING BUT NOTHING in commone with the right to die with dignity- zilch, zero, de nada, rien du tout... at all. What is the rationale behind this?

Can I join GT and Ana by supporting their calm and sensible approach to this subject.

It's been said often on similar threads and forgive me if repeating it irritates or distresses. If I left one of my dogs to die in the kind of pain that some people experience, I'd be prosecuted. I will be eternally grateful to our kind, empathic vet for the way in which he cared for us and our old dog in the weeks leading to the final decision that the time had come to allow the old dog to leave us. I wish my family doctor could have helped my mum in her final week, in a similarly sensitive, caring and professional manner.

Welcome back gj. To add to what you said, I think there's been some research in countries that allow choice that shows that people choose to live longer and in fact accept more pain simply because they know they have the choice to end it when it becomes unbearable. It's feeling that you have no choice that makes it so hard - once you are given control over your own destiny, then it's easier to cope. I really 'get' that.

www.dignityindying.org.uk/about-us/

Well worth supporting if you don't already.

I like "Foxy's" take in these tweets:

"@fleetstreetfox: Humans allow people to kill themselves in messy, horrid ways every day. Then ban someone doing it cleanly and calmly. t.co/KRhVO3P8WF"

"@fleetstreetfox: Jump under a train? Fine. Slit your wrists? Fine. Eat your own weight in chicken wings? Fine. Barbiturates? OH SHIT NO, HOW AWFUL."

"@fleetstreetfox: Why don't we like calm suicide? Because the church told us it meant we couldn't go to heaven. People before the church were more realistic."

I would add to her cleanly and calmly 'and because they want to'. Capital punishment is not a self choice. There is NO comparison between assisted suicide and capital punishement. The first is perosnal: chosen and administered by the person who wants to end their own life; the second is imposed by people in power over others.

I think things should be left as they are now. It would be an awful burden to put on a very ill person if they see their loved ones being worn down by their care.

I do not believe anyone is left to scream with agony on their deathbed. Doctors have ways, even if it means hastening ends.

I think we need more kind and compassionate carers. And more hospices.

Are you calling me a liar Jings ? How bloody dare you with such a heart rendering story ? If you bothered to keep up with the news , you would have read about the ombudsman's report into end of life care last week - you wouldn't be so uninformed and so certain in your ignorance then - and yes I am very very with your stupid thoughtless uninformed comment - and yes I mean all this personally so report away

And oh my goodness , grandma and apple pie - more hospices and kind and compassionate carers - well that'll be sorted next week

www.ombudsman.org.uk/reports-and-consultations/reports/health/dying-without-dignity/3

Read the bit on lack of pain control jings and then come back and apologise

And it wasn't that my neighbour 'just' suffered in his last hours. Hs GP and the out of hours service in his last months were also a disgrace - as you can tell me, this still upsets me - GOd knows how his poor wife coped