Charles Kennedy

merlotgran, sadly the majority do not look on alcoholism as an illness . How often we hear / read alcoholics are bed blocking, filling up A & E, how they are a drain on the NHS, then we have the homeless , many are alcoholics and they too are criticised , unemployed alcoholics are also condemned

annie I have never heard of alcoholics 'bed-blocking'.
I don't think it's helpful to stereotype them as homeless unemployed people either, although I accept some may end up hom less and enemies loved as a result of their alcoholism.
Addiction cuts across all strata of society and many alcoholics are high functioning people holding down responsible jobs.

Sorry phone has gone berserk this morning
That should of course read 'homeless and unemployed'

The thing I'll remember Bill Clinton for is 'It's the economy, stupid.'

merlot the disease model of alcoholism has been around for along time:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_theory_of_alcoholism

jane, I did not stereotype alcoholics as homeless unemployed people, I included homeless and unemployed because whilst some may admire alcholics such as Best and Kennedy they are not so kind towards all alcoholics , this is fact. Regarding bed blocking, you haven't read the many articles on alcoholics which claim they take up hospital beds because of illnesses caused by their addiction and therefore could be avoided . I am quite aware that alcoholism knows no class or academic achievements , attending AA meetings one meets all ages ,most professions , male and female

Annie I would agree that alcohol-related illness, and emergency admissions associated with binge-drinking probably take up an appreciable proportion of the NHS budget, but that isn't the same as accusing alcoholics of bed blocking.
In fact I think it's very difficult for alcoholics to access appropriate treatment for their addiction within the NHS.
But you could say that many other lifestyle related conditions drain the NHS of resources, and I dislike the modern tendency to blame people for things like obesity or even some cancers when really it is not that easy for people to make changes for a variety of reasons.

Jane , I agree with you, obesity, alcoholism and some other illnesses are condemned for wasting NHS resources , what of sports injuries etc

There is little help for alcoholics unless one can afford to pay for a room at the Priory .

I will share this, my daughter is a very gentle person , sober and drunk, she was in an abusive relationship, she tipped a mug of coffee so her partner dragged her into the garden and turned the hose pipe on her as a punishment, a neighbour reported him, the police charged him with battery, in court the magistrate said in her summing up that she congratulated him for his restraint in only using water but he was guilty so was fined .

I do wonder if she would have said this if he had treated a family pet the same.

Charles Kennedy seemed like a decent bloke and I feel sorry for anyone who has a tendency to addiction of any kind. His honesty about his problem was commendable.

The manner of his death was horrific - I would not wish it on anyone. Poor man to be on his own when this happened.

What a pity that a thread which started off paying tribute to an exceptional man has ended up as a discussion on alcoholism. The tribute paid to CK at the end of HIGNFY last night was introduced without fanfare and the extracts from programmes were chosen to show his humour and humanity.

I have not seen the words written down but I am assuming he died from ruptured oesophageal varices. I could not imagine a more horrendous death but sadly this is the result of alcoholism.
He did seem to be a nice man.

Indeed harrigran I too assume that this was how he died, as did a friend of mine - who was not alcoholic but had liver disease.

The first time I went onto the wards as a raw student medical social worker, the person in the next bed died in that way - I have never forgotten it - it was truly a baptism by fire for me.

How sad that he should have been so ill and died in so distressing a manner.

Oesophageal varices can indeed exist where there is liver disease without any link to alcoholism. I know only too well, DH has them and it is thought that portal hypertension may be what is behind his anaemia because of slight but persistent internal bleeding. Not a nice thought, but he is being monitored and the problem is as yet not acute.
He suffered similarly 18 years ago before his liver transplant and from my (untrained) observation, we are quite a long way off that level of severity and the Royal Free are keeping a eye on him.
[fingers crossed] emoticon.

It is not only the general public that doesn't always view alcoholism as a disease, neither does the medical profession universally accept the 'illness model'.This is an interesting article by a doctor. I agree with him.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3112825/DR-MAX-MIND-DOCTOR-pity-Charles-Kennedy-alcoholic-NOT-disease.html

It is in the "Daily Hate" nightowl. Is it really worth reading?

Pompous!

Do people call your opinions pompous merlotgran, or are you allowed to express them as long as they harm no one else?

I truly do believe that this paper had an "at least one hate a day campaign" - let's see who we can denigrate today. Why does that make me pompous or are all opinions that are contrary to yours pompous. If that is the case it probably says more about you than me.

Very occasionally they have a really good, well research article and if this is one I would like to read it otherwise I will not touch a paper that appeals to the lowest common denominator of the judgemental views held in the country.

Max Pemberton usually writes for the Telegraph, so I don't know what's behind his appearing in the Daily Hate.
His articles are usually worth reading, Gracesgran.
But he seems to be arguing that referring to alcoholism as an illness doesn't help the person with the condition.
He goes on:
"What always strikes me is that drinking is an attempt to blot out intense emotional pain and psychological distress.
In other words, people choose to drink alcohol.
It is an active decision they make each day in a disastrously botched attempt to deal with terrible personal problems. Pretending otherwise stops them seeing they can choose a different path."

I have no personal experience of alcoholism, but I have trouble accepting that someone suffering from alcoholism chooses to drink.

Just because at some point they choose to accept help to overcome the addiction, doesn't necessarily mean that prior to making that choice, they had been deliberately choosing the other path.

Sorry Anno I take your point about diverting the thread, but I think we are having a very interesting discussion. Perhaps GN Could hive off the later posts and start a new thread?

Thanks for that article- I agree too.

Can we really compare a child with say, a brain tumour, and an adult who is an alcoholic? I've known many people with alcohol dependency and full blown alcoholism (all really lovely people)- they have/had (several have died- one has got oesophagus cancer now and battling with life) all our support and sympathy- but telling them they 'can't help it as it is a disease' is really not helpful.

A child with a brain tumour or Duchennes Distrophy has NO CHOICE WHATSOEVER- an alcoholic has- a very tough and difficult choice, but a choice all the same.

Soutra - I am sorry your OH has such problems and hope that the docs are able to keep it all under control. The experiences with my friend and when I was a student were decades ago - thank goodness they are able to monitor and treat these problems now.

Granjura - I do believe that someone who is an alcoholic cannot simply make a choice to stop. Having suffered from a depressive illness and realised that I truly had no idea what it entailed until it happened to me, I do not feel able to judge others, as I cannot know how it feels.

I am TT and have been for many decades - my decision was based on my generally poor health and I felt that my body was sufficiently good at going wrong all by itself without me adding provocation!

You do rather misunderstood what I said. I never said it was 'simple, or 'easy' - but someone can choose to seek help, to distance themselves from the company and situations which cause the problem... as said, as VERY HARD and DIFFICULT choice, but a choice all the same. A choice that many people, including youngsters and children struck by some terrible diseases, have NO choice at all. One of my grandson's school friend has Duchennes, aged 9- and this is true tragedy, for instance.

Thanks for the insight janeainsworth. I read the article and I am afraid it read to me a little like the reports we can read of people in the middle ages saying someone must have sinned for a child to be born with a deformity. The problem is the alcohol not the person.

I see in the USA that cigarette companies are being sued for huge sums. I can see the day when companies selling alcohol will be sued too. Just because it is our drug of choice and some people can tolerate it does not, to me, mean it is the person who can't who is at fault.

I am slightly concerned about the description "Dr Max the mind doctor" and wonder if the Telegraph just preferred not to print this.

Alcohol in sensible amounts is not a problem for most people- but only for a small minority. Are you suggesting all alcohol should be banned because a few people have a problem with it?

What next, chocolate?

Thank you for posting that link nightowl I too so agree with it. I do believe that it is possibly an addictive personality which makes it more likely a person becomes addicted whether to drugs, alcohol, gambling etc.but it is only within the person that this can be overcome. All the treatment in the world is no good whatsoever if the patient does not recognise what they are and is determined to fight and conquer it. It is an invidious addiction which creeps up on people and by the time anyone recognises it there is a hold on the person.
With my late husband I saw that each time he walked in through the front door - after work - after the weekly shop - where I flicked the switch on the kettle or had a cold drink he opened the whisky. When I pointed this out it was not received well and nothing changed and by then the slippery slope was well underneath him.
It totally ruins lives - not only that of the alcoholic themselves - who are often very nice people when sober - but those of family, loved ones and friends. After twenty years of losing his father my DS can still not talk or think about any of it and DD finds it difficult but every so often still needs to pick at the scab - I always remind them of what a good and loving father they had when young but unfortunately they remember more their teenage and young adult times when they feel he totally ruined their lives.

Yes Gracesgran, the article in the Mail is shall we say rather more populist in its slant than his articles in the Telegraph, which tend to be more discerning
I don't think the Telegraph would have included this gem of a paragraph for instance:
"This is why the disease model is championed by so many of the liberal elite — it’s a way they can show each other how caring and sympathetic they are. It makes them feel better about themselves.
Similarly, this is why people are wary of publicly challenging the idea — because they are fearful of being branded cold-hearted."


Granjura No-one is comparing children with brain tumours with adults with alcoholism - that is quite irrelevant to this discussion.

I notice that although Max Pemberton says alcoholism shouldn't be called an illness, he carefully avoids saying what he thinks it should be called. A condition? What differerence does it make what you call it?

Most ill-health, apart from infectious disease, is due to chronic conditions, and often the course of it can be affected by how much the patient contributes to its management. Type 2 diabetes is a prime example. Patients can choose to modify their diet and postpone the need for drug therapy, or they can choose not to, and perhaps suffer the consequences that people have a higher risk profile for, sooner rather than later. I don't believe that people with diabetes who don't manage their coindition well are actively choosing ill-health.
Even some forms of cancer are now regarded as chronic conditions that can be managed, rather than illnesses to which someone has to submit.

I don't think alcoholism should be regarded any differently.