Whose fault is it? [hmm]

There are rebels and rebels! now in Syria, the original rebels to Assad's regime are fighting each other and also fighting ISIS.

I was listening to the numbers of people who are estimated to have left to fight in Syria (around 2,000) and was completely astounded. Then I remembered that at the beginning of the conflict it was spoken of as a rebellion for freedom and we were proposing to bomb Assad and support the 'freedom fighters'. Now we are discussing bombing the rebels. I can see that some young people might have left to fight for freedom at the start. I find the policy changes confusing, how much more difficult it must be if you are being fed anti-British propaganda.

Or being held responsible...

Mysterious. Mitigating circumstances notwithstanding I'm a great believer in people taking responsibility for their own actions.

I suspect we'll never know somehow. Sigh.

I suppose the truth will come out in time why this group of twelve, old people, a baby etc left for Syria.My guess is that they have a few young men in the family who are already out there fighting with ISIS and they have gone to join them.

What strange thing do you think is going on Lilygran? It's a worry isn't it, so difficult for most of us to understand why anyone would take sick, elderly parents and young children into a war zone. Add the fact that the family appear to have gone in order to join a group who carry out the most barbaric, brutal and oppressive regime and I just feel slightly sick.

Now another family of 12 including baby and grandparents both said to be in poor health have gone to Syria. I think there is something very strange going on. They were of Bangladeshi origin and went there first. If you simply don't like life in this country and you have family etc elsewhere, surely your first choice is to go 'home', not into a war zone?

lilygran Yes in some circumstances of national security we have to use surveilance and other such "spy tactics." We would not have stood much chance in the last war if we had not done that. ISIS etc are not a group to be reasoned with any more than the war time German Nazi party was. These are dangerous times.

Whatever those woman thought they themselves were doing they should not have taken their children into a violent war zone. That situation is really appalling.

We wouldn't be very happy with police methods if another train was blown up and it turned out they had information about the bombers but didn't try to get more in case the family didn't like it.

There is a difference between being "under surveillance" and being asked to inform on someone. The problems of informants and families split by this has been documented in other conflicts where the police have used various methods to obtain information.

If the police were hounding them to that extent surely, when they left for another country, albeit supposedly on holiday, they would have been under surveillance and could have been prevented from going to Syria?

What about just blaming them, themselves if "blame" is indeed the appropriate word?

And why bother?

And who are you blaming, for the actions of the women?

My feelings exactly*Soutra*. Once we are adults we are responsible for all our actions and, while at times there may be mitigating factors, for our actions, nevertheless we must take ultimate responsibility. These women were sisters, they were not alone and isolated they obviously had a close relationship and supported each other. They also had three other sisters who were not involved.

If they were not happy about police pressure they could have spoken to a local councilloor or their MP or refused point blank to contact their brother while the police were harrassing them.

Even then it was no justification for taking their children with them when they went to join their brother.

Another example of our blame culture I think.
We do like to blame somebody else for everything don't we? Whether it's your parents, schools, Social Services, the NHS, the council, the government or just " them", people seem less and less willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

Perhaps it was the combined pressure of the brother fighting in Syria and the police trying to use them for information, so seeming to confirm the propaganda he was probably pouring in their ear. Under such difficult circumstances they must have felt totally lost. Planning to leave would have at least given them some sort of relief. If I was asked to inform on a well loved brother (no matter how wrong I thought his actions might be) I would be absolutely distraught. I don't condone what they have done but I do think they might have felt it was their only option.

Jane, most other Muslims living here seem to manage ok.

Whatever the explanation they plainly were unhappy and wanted to leave. We'll never know. Torn between two cultures must be hellish. I reckon its a lose lose situation for them and their unfortunate children. Have their parents said anything btw?

Conversely the police may have had suspicions and been monitoring them because the brother had gone, and don't forget they'd been stopped at the airport earlier this year and their plans/motives questioned

But they've lived here all their lives, you'd think they would have learned to deal with 'Western temptations'.

And as you say, who knows? There's no point our making assumptions about how devout or otherwise they were, and information given to the media isn't necessarily true.

They could just plain be unhappy in their arranged marriages to complete strangers from Pakistan and leading a sort of constrained half life in a virtual ghetto. It must be so hard trying to lead a Muslim life in our society. They couldn't put the TV on without seeing all sorts of Western temptations and Western viewpoints of how things are. Unhappy, torn in half , they didn't seem to fit here so have gone to what they see as a better place for them. Who knows? I think its daft those husbands with their so called happy marriages blaming the police. They must be seriously embarrassed and looking for someone else to blame

I think that it is another situation where we will never know all the ins and out of it. Sometimes things are cumulative.

I don't think the police are saintly. I don't think that saying their treatment of the women was 'oppressive' is a valid reason for them absconding with their children, either.