Whose fault is it? [hmm]

I think it's quite possible, even probable, that the police did put too much pressure on the women to keep in touch with their brother. I think it's "security at all costs" at all costs at the moment, which is understandable, but it could well have backfired in this instance. The police could well have been heavy-handed. Maybe it was too much for these young women, having the police breathing their necks all the times. Our police are far from saintly in these matters.

I think we can already predict which GN posters will think YABU, Lilygran as the subject has been discussed on another thread.

Agreed! Ana.
Regardless of the police interest in their brother, that does not make three grown women and all of their children head off to a war zone, and a terror group like ISIS.No doubt these husbands feel fools, if they truly didn't know it was going to happen.We don't even know the truth of that though, at this moment in time.So they are casting around for somebody, anybody, to blame!

This issue came up some time within the last year and then it involved a young black man. I can't remember the details but it was said that the police hounded him because they wanted him to be a sort of double agent.

I certainly believe it is a possibility.

Why do people think our police are so saintly?

We don't know, in our insulated little worlds, how those people get treated.

I don't think the police are saintly. I don't think that saying their treatment of the women was 'oppressive' is a valid reason for them absconding with their children, either.

I think that it is another situation where we will never know all the ins and out of it. Sometimes things are cumulative.

They could just plain be unhappy in their arranged marriages to complete strangers from Pakistan and leading a sort of constrained half life in a virtual ghetto. It must be so hard trying to lead a Muslim life in our society. They couldn't put the TV on without seeing all sorts of Western temptations and Western viewpoints of how things are. Unhappy, torn in half , they didn't seem to fit here so have gone to what they see as a better place for them. Who knows? I think its daft those husbands with their so called happy marriages blaming the police. They must be seriously embarrassed and looking for someone else to blame

But they've lived here all their lives, you'd think they would have learned to deal with 'Western temptations'.

And as you say, who knows? There's no point our making assumptions about how devout or otherwise they were, and information given to the media isn't necessarily true.

Conversely the police may have had suspicions and been monitoring them because the brother had gone, and don't forget they'd been stopped at the airport earlier this year and their plans/motives questioned

Whatever the explanation they plainly were unhappy and wanted to leave. We'll never know. Torn between two cultures must be hellish. I reckon its a lose lose situation for them and their unfortunate children. Have their parents said anything btw?

Jane, most other Muslims living here seem to manage ok.

Perhaps it was the combined pressure of the brother fighting in Syria and the police trying to use them for information, so seeming to confirm the propaganda he was probably pouring in their ear. Under such difficult circumstances they must have felt totally lost. Planning to leave would have at least given them some sort of relief. If I was asked to inform on a well loved brother (no matter how wrong I thought his actions might be) I would be absolutely distraught. I don't condone what they have done but I do think they might have felt it was their only option.

Another example of our blame culture I think.
We do like to blame somebody else for everything don't we? Whether it's your parents, schools, Social Services, the NHS, the council, the government or just " them", people seem less and less willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

My feelings exactly*Soutra*. Once we are adults we are responsible for all our actions and, while at times there may be mitigating factors, for our actions, nevertheless we must take ultimate responsibility. These women were sisters, they were not alone and isolated they obviously had a close relationship and supported each other. They also had three other sisters who were not involved.

If they were not happy about police pressure they could have spoken to a local councilloor or their MP or refused point blank to contact their brother while the police were harrassing them.

Even then it was no justification for taking their children with them when they went to join their brother.

And who are you blaming, for the actions of the women?

And why bother?

What about just blaming them, themselves if "blame" is indeed the appropriate word?

If the police were hounding them to that extent surely, when they left for another country, albeit supposedly on holiday, they would have been under surveillance and could have been prevented from going to Syria?

There is a difference between being "under surveillance" and being asked to inform on someone. The problems of informants and families split by this has been documented in other conflicts where the police have used various methods to obtain information.

We wouldn't be very happy with police methods if another train was blown up and it turned out they had information about the bombers but didn't try to get more in case the family didn't like it.

lilygran Yes in some circumstances of national security we have to use surveilance and other such "spy tactics." We would not have stood much chance in the last war if we had not done that. ISIS etc are not a group to be reasoned with any more than the war time German Nazi party was. These are dangerous times.

Whatever those woman thought they themselves were doing they should not have taken their children into a violent war zone. That situation is really appalling.