English Votes for English Laws

VQ - it is English MPs to vote on 'English only' laws - it does not matter whether the non-English MPs would vote in the best interests of English people but that they come from a part of the Union that has its own parliament to vote on these same things.
since Scotland and the other parts of the United Kingdom have a disproportionate number of MPs in relation to their population this becomes even more important as a way to redress the balance and ensure law-making is democratic.

POGS - excellent post that said all I would have tried to articulate
the misinformation needs to be challenged.

Someone said that they'd not met any English person who thought Scotland should have voted to leave the Union. Well you have now. I think it was a big mistake. No doubt some were wholeheartedly supportive of the Union but perhaps, for others, it was fear of the unknown or the promises that Cameron made regarding extra powers that swung their vote.

Talking about English votes for English people makes it sound as if the non-English MPs don't vote in the best interest of the English. I wish there had been more Scottish MPs when the vote came for tuition fees. Maybe then our young people wouldn't come out of education with a millstone of debt around their necks.

You can't protect the Union by cherry picking what elected members of the national parliament can or can't vote upon. If England really wants it's own say then it needs to set up a second parliament leaving Westminster to simply deal with national issues.

If we're going to set up independent parliaments then I'd like one for Yorkshire as Westminster seems to focus on things that benefit London and South East.

The use of quoting the number of Westminster MP's is factual but slightly a disingenuous point to make. No offence intended, merely stating an opinion.

It is also worth remembering the numbers of 'elected members/politicians' of the devolved nations. The Members of the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly Members and N. Ireland members have more sway over some decision making to those devolved countries than even the Westminster Prime Minister, Cabinet Members and MP's, the UK government so their numbers must be included for fairness alone.

Of course you cannot remember to add/ include the English members, as England is the only country out of the 4 nations of the UK that doesn't have a devolved Assembly/Parliament does it.

Carwin Jones nor Nicola Sturgeon attend Westminster but they can hold more power in their devolved parliaments than the UK Government . Why is it remotely fair/democratic the devolved countries can vote on laws/policies that affect the English only but the English are refused to have a vote on devolved countries policy making.

Example. Members of the Scottish Parliament voted against the English University Students having equal rights as those from the the devolved countries and the EU and charge the English Students fees. Wales has a 5p levy on plastic bags.

Devolved countries can vote on 'some' varience of policy for say Abortion Laws, Alcohol /Drink Driving Limits/Education /Health Service /etc. The Westminster MP's from those devolved countries can vote on English only policies yet the English politicians are forbidden to vote on the policies of the other 3 devolved countries. HOW on earth is that remotely an equal playing field and dare I say remotely democratic.

As I said in my last post. Let's try an experiment. N.Ireland,Wales and England have devolved parliaments but Scotland doesn't. After all it is only permitted for 3 out of the 4 countries that make up the UK are allowed to speak up for their fellow countrymen. If you are English and try to speak for your fellow countrymen you are crassly called 'Little Englander',bigot, racist,nationalist.

Remember the last General Election, The Welsh Assembly and The Scottish Parliament could espouse as much patriotism as they wanted for their devolved countries yet they were not candidates for election . No English MP dare to do espouse/display English patriotism in the same manner. Can you imagine the English running round with the flag of St. George draped over them in our towns and cities, ye gods there would have been uproar, yet it was no problem for the Saltire or Welsh flag .

Be proud to be Welsh, Scottish, and fly your flags with pride and think yourself lucky you have your own elected politicians looking after your interests but for heavens sake let the English have the opportunity to do the same.

That is a good point Lilygran.

Scotland voted not to be on its own. That was Scotland's choice, and it got its way.

I dont understand what Scotland has not got, that it was promised? But dont answer anyone if that is a stupid question.

'the English'! Isn't that racist?

"English votes for English laws, an answer to the conundrum formerly known as the West Lothian question, undoubtedly speaks to a genuine sense of grievance, although not one with much basis in fact. According to the Commons library, almost all the legislation since 2001 has been passed with the support of a majority of English MPs as well as a majority in the Commons as a whole. Researchers counted 3,800 divisions. Less than 1% would have had a different outcome without Scottish votes. In fact, the power of Scottish MPs in particular either to obstruct laws the English want, or to force through ones that they reject, is almost entirely theoretical."

From a Guardian article, believe it or not. There is no reason to have this legislation apart from pettiness.

Exactly Lilygran.

Last time I looked, Wales had its own Assembly with members elected only by the Welsh electorate, passing legislation applying to Wales. Sorry to put in a link because I know a lot of people don't like them but it does sometimes help to check the facts. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assembly_for_Wales. What makes the whole thing nonsense on stilts is that many laws passed in NI, Scotland and Wales do affect the rest of the UK and England has no representation in any of those assemblies. Those areas, of course, do have representation in the Westminster Parliament. Double representation for every country of the UK except for England.

If the English want to vote on things that affect them, why do they not want to go the whole way and allow other countries the same rights as they want?
Why did they promise so much to keep Scotland in the union, then complain when Scotland asked for what it was promised?
If they want to be English, why do they want to rule three other areas?

The ISO has said Wales is a country, the term principality is archaic because the PoW has no powers in Wales ,having a PoW was the reason Wales was classed a principality centuries ago

I will agree to disagree with you rosesarered about borders.

With all respect! Scotland is a kingdom. Wales is a principality

The coastline around Britain of course are our borders Soon!But we do not have borders as such between our countries,they are in name only borders .Surely you know this?

I think that the question about the Scottish/Welsh/Irish MPs voting on English issues is more to do with the fact that if the opposition party disagrees with the Govt. on some legislation which only affects England - such as Health or Education- it would be possible for the combined votes of the Scottish/ Welsh/ Irish MPs to vote with the opposition and depending on the majority not allow the legislation through. Much of the legislation does apply to the whole UK but if one area ' country' is not affected then fair enough they should abstain or not be able to vote.
It is being rushed through but over the years laws which in retrospect have been seen to be bad laws have been repealed.

I call the coast, part of England borders.
Perhaps I am using the wrong word.

DJen, think about it, why would English people be against making things a bit more fair for their own country.Why on earth do you think that even if there was a referendum the answer would be 'no thanks , we like the unfairness of it just the way it is'. so it seems reasonable to imagine that most people would be for it.

Who is this 'you' you are addressing drj?

I'd like reasoned debate about it. That's why I started the thread. Again you say "just as most people in this country think".
How do you know?
A referendum would sort that out. We do not know what the government means by English laws . Until we do, we cannot debate reasonably.

Ana, not griping, just mentioned the MP's etc because I don't think there can ever be an agreement which be equally fair to the four countries , as it is now it's unfair N .ireland, Wales and Scotland can vote on the English NHS yet there are not enough MP's to vote against any proposals anyway

The coastline is policed Soon, not the border between England and Scotland or for that matter between England and Wales, we are all as free to come and go as we like.

Fox - I dont think I will be bothered if a fox crosses into scotland!
Farming - I didnt understand your point.
Transport - lots of airports, train stations and roads too etc only affect England, so English law for most of that.

Yes there are some overlaps to things, but plenty that just affect England in my opinion. Doable.

Looks like it is going to happen, so has to be doable?

Our borders are policed rosesareread. The coastguard.

I could be wrong on any of that! But I dont think so?

DJen, I should think that a fair few of G'netters are Scottish and think of themselves as such as well as British, and I am sure that Anniebach thinks of herself as Welsh. I am English as are many others on here, English first, British second, just as most people in this country think, Scots, and Welsh People too. it's this same old thing again,that somehow you can be 'proud' of being a Scot or a Welsh person, but not English people, sssh! We must say British only. it's quite mad.You used that phrase beloved of some '.......little Englander' which is merely an insult and not what I asked you at all, I asked if you were English, because I Really thought you must be a Scot. you were so delighted by the SNP around election time.
it would be rather nice if we could ever get back to a bit of reasoned debate on at least one thread!

I've just googled so I'll answer my own question.
In 2013, England had 53.9 million people and Wales had 3.1 million.
So if England has 533 MPs compared to Wales' 40, people in Wales actually have proportionally more representation in the Westminster Parliament than English people do.
On top of that, the Welsh people have their own Assembly which English people don't, so I don't think they could complain that their views are not represented.

Anniebach, at least Wales has a Labour government, not that it seems to be doing the country much good apart from free prescriptions.